EXHIBIT
OATEADMITTEDl1to$aW~ .~.
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International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda
Tribunal Penal International pour Ie Rwanda
UNITED NATIONS
NATIONSUNIES
Arusha International Conference centre
P.O. Box 6016, Arusha, Tanzania
Tel: 255272504207-11/2504367-72 or 12129632850 - Fax: 255272504000/2504373 or 1 2129632848
THE PROSECUTOR v, EMMANUEL NDINDABAHIZI
lCTR-2001-71-T
[CONFIDENTIAL I
INTERVIEWES WITH
EMMANUEL NDINDABAHIZI
International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda
Tribunal Penal International pour Ie Rwanda
Arusha International Conference Centre
P.O. Box 6016, Arusha, Tanzania
TeJ: 255272504207·11/2504367·72 or 1 2129632850 - Fax: 255272504000/2504373 or 1 2129632848
UNITEDNATIONS
NATIONS UNIES
THE PROSECUTOR v, EMMANUEL NDINDABAHIZI
ICTR-2001-71-T
1. & 2.
Interview with Ndindabahizi Emmanuel on 8-11 July
and 1-3 August 1997 (French and English).
3. & 4.
Interview with Ndindabahizi Emmanuel on 30 November
1996 (French and English).
Le 6 avril il y eu le crash, la radio avise de rester chez-nous, j'ai su que des voisins avaient ete tues. J'ai pris panique, je me suis sauve chez un ami, car je demeurais au milieu. Le matin 9: 10 A.M. je suis allé me cacher chez un voisin car je venais d'apprendre que des militaires tuaient des voisins. Je suis reste cache, a 2:00 PM, les gens couraient et on nous a dit que les militaires du FPR sont sortis, alors je quitte j' ai demande a mon epouse et mes enfants de se cacher. J'étais dans le PSD, je lui ai donne mon numero de telephone pour qu' ils me contactent, on a rampé sain et sauf , ca m'a pris 2 heures pour faire un kilometre, pour m'y rendre, car on tirait, à la barrière ils m'ont arrête et demander où j'allais, j'ai répondu là-bas où il y a la sécurite je me déplace, Je suis allé chez un ami RAFIKI Yacinthe, directeur du cabinet du ministre des travaux publics. II y a eu combat entre le FPR et la garde présidentielle. il y avait résistance.
Le 8 avril 1994, j'ai passe la nuit chez RAFIKI le Colonel Bagosora est venu chez-lui, ils se sont parlé RAFIKI m'a dit de me rendre à une reunion politique et je lui ai parlé de ta présence et que tu étais pre... du PSD et si je pouvais l'accompagné et il a accepté. On embarque dans la voiture de mon ami et nous sommes allés chercher un autre ami NDUNGUSTE François. À la réunion on nous a conduit au Minadef sur le plateau, il y avait des membres des autres partis politiques et ils nous ont dit "Vous êtes arrivés, il manque des membres du PSD. Ils voulaient que chaque parti garde sa structure et le groupement. La decision appartenait au comité du parti, on a dit écoutez, vous connaissez la situation, on se bat partout, , c'est pas possible de réunir un bureau politique pour decider; Votre president de Vo... comité est mort, le secrétaire avait été assassiné , le 2 ième V.P. est décédé, il restait une femme dent nous ignorions où elle habitait.
Alors nous leur avons demandé ce que nous devions faire et vu que parmi les trois, deux étaient
membres du bureau politique, ils se sont entendus pour décider de me donner ce poste. C'était une
decision que nous devions expliquer à notre bureau politique et si celui-ci accepte, nous changerons ça nous avons signé un papier, c'est de cette façon que je suis devenu Ministre des Finances.
Bagosora, Je savais qui était directeur de cabinet de la Minadef qui était en mission à l'extérieur, je ne savais pas s'il agissait en son nom propre au au nom de d'autres car quand je suis arrivé la reunion était termine. J'étais directeur du cabinet, je travaillais déjà dans ce GVT, on avaient même pas le temps de féliciter, c'était des surprises. On nous a obligé de rester à l'Hotel des Diplomates. J' ai 5 enfants, je ne savais même pas où etait ma femme. Le 9 avril, j'ai emprunter une voiture et je suis alle voir ma femme, il y avait des combats, je n'étais pas tranquille, je l'ai finalement trouvé, à 10:00 am j'ai prêté serment.
Je suis marie, 5 enfants, garcon 19 et 5 ans, fille 18, 14, 9 ans, plus rna farnille Africaine, je ne sais p~
si elle est encore en vie, 141 partie Tutsis y sont taus morts massacres et soupconne que la partie Hutus a
ete elimine par le FPR. J' avais rna propre maison, eUe est rnaintenant occupee par un officier du FPR,
j' avais 3 autres maisons en ville.
Emmanuel a termine cette partie de son entrevue tres ernotif se plaignant qu'fl n'a pas de
nouvelles des siens et n'ose pas s'Inforrner de peur des faire massacrer et qu'il n'a pas de contac
qu'iI aimerait pouvoir entrer au Rwanda, qu"n faudrait exp'liquer a Kagame, qu'il n'a rien fait.
1. Vous avez ete N£inistre des Finances du 9-4-1994 au 1-11-1994?
REP: OUI, j'ai fini mes etudes en 1976, al'Universite de Butare, de 76/80 j'etais dir. des tinances che~
Trufipro, 80 a la fonction publique, 81/85 Dir. Chef des services administracifs et finances a
I,Electrogaz, 85 a 90 au mini.stere du plan, chef de la division elaboration budgetaire charge au
developpem~nt, demissiOl.:.,r 1991 POllf pratiquer dans un bureau d'audit au prive.\Enjuillet 1992 au (
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Avril 1994, directeur de cabinet du minintre des finances. J' etais entre comme membre d' un parti
politique car les finances etaient confie au PSD.
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2. Comment avez-vous aime cette Iourde tache, cest toute une experience a vivre ca?
3. Qui VQUS a appointe Ministre des Finances, qui adecrete le nouveau gouvernement?REP: voir ci-haut.
3. a. Quel etait I'attidude du Colonel Bagasora, vis-a-vis vous, le monde de la finance et les
milieux bancaire?
REP: Le Colonel Bagosora, il a aide les banques J. dernenager sans autre forme de pression, il a assure
securite du transfert. II est alle ala Banque Nationale et a assure la protection dans Ie transfert de Kiga
a Gitararna.
3.b. Etait-il autoritaire, vindicatif, dictateur, decrivez-rnoi de quel facon VOLIS I'avez percu?
REP: II ri'etait pas autoritaire, il navait pas daurorite sur les banques, si! a fait des pressions internes.
je ne le sais pas. Je l' ai vu chez RAFIKI la premiere fois, on ne s' est pas parler, rnerne au plateau je ne
lui ai pas parle. Je ne l' ai pas vu diriger, je sais qu' avant la mise en place du GVT il faisait parti du
cornite de crise qui a. aide et a ete a I'origine de la formation du GVT.
."Bagosora etait un rnilitaire que personne ne c.ontes1ait~ il faisait ses deplacernents pour organise:... i1 etai
libre de ses mouvements, partout ou on avait besoin de quelque chose, Bagosora etait capable d' aider.
4. Qui a pris la decision de transferer le gvt. a Gitararna le 12 Avril 94'1
REP: II n: a pas eu de reunion pour prendre la decision, rnoi j' etais pas la, a man retour j' ai vu que tout
monde dernenageait, jai suivi, perscnne a pris In. decision. Je me suis fait raconter que la Colonel Adic
NDI.:'iD ARIYT?vfAN A, maintenant en Belgique, que c'etait lui qui avait dit quil fallait etre en securite
car il a participe au dernenagement, cest lui-rnerne qui a accornpagne le GYT.
5. Quel etait votre role en tanr que Ministre des Finances?
REP: Le GVT avait dernande que j' ordonne la securite des fonds de l'Ecat. J' ai ecris une lettre au
Go~eur de la BNR de mettre les fonds de I' Etat en securite, Le GVT a decider de dernenager les
fonds et de les rnettre dans les voutes de Ia BCR de Gitarama. A ce moment la, Ie rninistere des finance
j' avais des attributions quand j' ai ete nomrne comme directeur de cabinet du .min. des finances, apres jl
n' avais pas la clef du bureau du Ministre, Ie' travail quej' ai commence a faire a Gitararna quand Ie GV
m' a dit de mettre les moyens necessaires pour Ie travail de de.demander. aux banques de la region de
commencer les activites ou il ri'y avait pas de combat. On a debute avec les banques proches et tres
rapidement nous sommes alles a Berare avec le directeur du budget et deux militaires pour ma garde.
Nous avons dernande au comptable de la prefecture de transferer.Iejirs fonds ala cornptabilite de
Gitarama. Les .deux cornptables sont alles a la comptabilite de Gitamara sous la supervision du directer
du budget a Gitarama. Les activites. l' essen tiel c' etait d' organiser la paie des fonctionnaires. car ceux«
etaient payes via leur compte respectif et de rnaintenir par la liste redigee par les fonctionnaires de
credits de differents ministeres. Comme les comptes de l'Etat etaient toujours debiteurs a.' chaque fois
que Ie min. des finances a dernande un credit ala Banque National pour le decouvert. ]' avais ecrit une
lettre au directeur de la BNR de preter davance I'argent au GVT, une avance en compte de 1.2 rnillian
FRW, pour les depenses de fonctionnement, carburants, salaires et autres.
Le directeur du tn~sor devait tire des fonds jusqu' a ce moment, on en est reste la jusqu' au mois de Juir
date a Iaquelle ont a ere deloge de Gitarama par Ie FPR a Gisenyi . Pour les reunions on allaient a
Nloramba car Ie ministre est toujours reste la , plus d' une heure en voiture. Les fonds ont ere transfere
dans Ia chambre forte de la BCR et BK, a leurs succursales a Gitarama. L'argent de la BNR a ete depc
dans les chambres fortes de la BCR et BK a Gitarama, en Juin on a quitte pour Gisenyi et les banques
BCR et BK sont allees s'installer a Gisenyi dans les banques commerciales de leurs succursales et elle~
ont continue leurs activites
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5. a. Avez-vous noter une continuite dans la politique de votre nouveauxGv"T d'avec lancien'[
REP: Le min. Des finances a eu une continuite comme avant pour les operations, c'etait le cote
depenses que .nous faisions car du cote reverru on en avait pius; 00' a respects le fonctionnernent
anterieur, les banques sont restees independantes, ala BNR les agents de l' Etat sent restes en place, les
directeurs, tout Ie monde acontinuer. Concernant d' autres ministeres , rnerne chose, via les
gestionnaires de credit assure l' interrnediaire entre Ies rninisteres et le notre, c' etait la merne procedun
de gestion, tout Ie monde a garde sa place.
Au niveau haute direction et des banques on a pas eu de pertes de vie, sauf LIn conseiller Tutsi qui a ete :t
tue. Pour les autres rninisteres. je n' ai rien vu d' anorrnal en relation avec le fonctionnement sachant qUI.;
dans les rninistres nornmes aucun avait pu entre dans leurs bureaux a Kigali. II n'y avait personne, pas :~
.assez de personnel qui etaient partis dans la fuite par la peur, on a dG aller Ies rappeler chez-eux via r. ';i,
radio de venir reprendre le service a Gitarnara, un autre problernes, on n' avait pas de bureau, au niveau i
finance, c 'etait surtout des caissiers qui devaient couvrir la paye et Ies achats, les autres etaient
inutilisables tel que douanes et irnpcts. Les depts. du budget et tresorerie avaient du travail. Au niveau
justice, Ie FPR avait relache tout le monde et nous tentions de dernenager ces dossiers pour les mettre
l' abri. Le communique a passe le 9 avril ala radio, le FPR a accentue les bombardements et Kigali ava
ferrne depuis le 7 avril.
5. b. SeIon vous des plans pour les achars d'armes et des outils ainsi qu'une planification du
genocide etaient-ils deja en rnarche avec le GVT aqterieur?
REP: Je ne sais pas, nous nous sommes poses la question, moi persorrnellement, j'ai insiste sur les non
de certains purs, Le gars responsable du service de renseignernent 'qui etait le beau-fils du President esc
rnaintenant ministre de I'agriculture
president durant la guerre d' exil, ce qui veut dire; avait-il pris connaissance de ce plan, aurait-il fait
quelque chose pour que ca echoue, pourquoi alors rnaintenant il est au GVT FPR sil n'a pas pu
ernpecher le genocide? Pourquoi ces gens ri'ont rien fait pour sauver les gens.
Je ne sais rien du plan, j avais encendu des rurneurs a Kigali, les gens disaient que les militaires avec la
signature des accords d' Arusha nauront plus ase battre, sils savent que derriere eux a Kigali il y a de:
infiltres du FPR? Mais dire qu'il y avait un plan?
Suite a l' atmosphere de Kigali, avait certaines personnes qui craignaient pour leurs vie, Us etaient dan!
linsecurite. Le conseiller du min. des finances J\'lBAGUTA Jean-Marie, aux affaires techniques et
Adm. etait aile a la reunion de Katiru qui devait mettre en place le parlement, c ' est la derniere reunion
qui a eu lieu, quand il est retourne au bureau il m' a declare qu' il etait decourage, que l' assembles ne
pouvait etre mise en place, c' est fini, le President va tue les Tutsis maintenant. II a ete tue celui-ci, Il y
avait aussi les Tutsis er Hutus de l' opposition qui avaient peur du :NINR. Le secretaire de notre pani PS
soup<;onnait Ie Lvll'l'RD au pouvoir. Je n' ai jamais vu une telle lisee.
Le PSD, dans l' opposition, c' etait un parti d' opposition, en certains moments il y a eu des problemes
au sein de notre parti et des autres pards, on reprochait a certains membres d' etre trap FPR, d' autres
etaient accuses de de rapprocher par Ie MNRD. Deux partis ont fait du recru~.ement pour Ie PSD et Ie
MNRD. Avanc, nous avions un pard tres uni con'tre Ie NINRD q'lIi voulait conquerir Ie pouvoir par Ies
urnes. Dans Ie probleme de partage. notre parti a ete touche, son cornice a ete decime et acause de ceh
notre president a et~ tue Ie premier puis les 2 v-po AIa mise en' place du GVT, Ie premier ministre a
donne les objectifs du nouveau GVT qui etaient clairs et raisonnables au vu de Ia situation, parlait du
contact avec Ie FPR pour arreter Ia guerre, son GVT avait ere ntis en place pour 6 semaines seulement,
les objeccifs etaient nobles. on voulaient mettre fin ala guerre et reprendre les negociations, il n'y avail
done pas de raison de penser que ce plan n allait pas reussir, mais pour nocre equipe du PSD, l' objectif
erait de suivre 141 ligne de notre parti, contre 1a violence qu' on pronait dans notre comportement, c' etait
Ia ligne du parti, c etait de ne pas soutenir la violence et arreter ceile·ci et de favoriser les negociations.
Dans Ie premier temps, Ie GVT a envoye une mission pour contacter Ie FPR pour negocier un cessez Ie
feu et mettre en place Ies accords d' Arusha, echecs, Ie FPR l' a refuse,.il youlait que Ie GVT demisionn
d'abord pour qu'il negocie avec les forces armees Rwandaises et qu'a un certain moment Ie GVT avait
accepte que l' armee negocie, mais Ie FPR a exige que r armee ne devait pas etre mandater par Ie GVT.
Naus avipns cru qu'il n'y avait pas de raison de ne r~s ~ccepter Ies pastes qu'on nous proposait et
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GVT pourrais faire avancer quoique ce soit, nous ne semmes pas entre en coalition, rnais que les
rninistres etaient diriges par notre parti. Nous gardions notre ligne et nos acquis.
6. Quel estvotre pouvoir sur la Banque Nationale du Rwanda et les autres Banques?
REP: La BNR est dirige par un conseil d' administration, Ie President du conseil c' est le Gouverneur qt
rnene rnais place sous la tutelle du NUn. Des Finances. Le ministre y est represente au niveau du consei :
dadministration. Le rninistre des finances propose au GVT la nomination du Gouverneur, rnais c'est It
President de la Republique qui Ie nomme. Les autres banques.sont gerespar leurs conseils
d' administration, le representant du GVT est nornme par le min. des finances. S' il y a des decisions a
prendre, le representant et In. pour la conforrnite des lois et des decisions.
7. Les banques ferrnerent Ie 6-04-94, qui a pris I'initiative des faires ouvrir?
REP: Les banques n' ont pas ferme, tout le monde a eu Ie communique via la radio de rester ala maisoi
On a ordonne que les activites recommencent, taus les secteurs ont agi, le min.des finances et les
commerces ant ouvert dans la zone du controle du GVT et ant recommence les activires,
8. Vous avez declare aM. Morrissette que vo us aviez fait face ades problernes, lesquels?
REP:Surtout au niveau des devises du cote finance, nous avions dernande aux banques leurs devises,
. c'est pour ca.qu'cn autilise cene mission. A l'etrapger et on a.du transerer.a la BNR pour qu'on utilise'
les TC , la banque commerciale de Gitararna a cede a la BNR pour qu' ils soient utilises dans Ie
fonctionnement. Avec les problernes d' arnbargo personne pouvait accepte nos commandes, il fallait
payer cash, ca nous a perrnis d' utiliser les TCS qui ont ete eux aussi frappe par l' ambargo,
Directement apres la mise en place du GVT il Yavait le problerne des munitions. On negociait Ia paix
avant, le min. des finances du temps avait done bloque des commandes de la Minadef pour I'armee, il
avait refuse car il avait cru que la paix arrivait. Le 6 Avril 1994, les militaires
etaient enrages, on nous accusait d etre FPR, si Ie min. avait ere la, lise serait fait tire, ca a serne la
panique dans I' armee, car ii n' y a rien de difficile de faire descommandes. rnais sans armement nous n
pouvions pas imposer la paix.
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9. Quel methode avez-vous utilise pour obtenir les fonds necessaires pour administration?
10. Concernant la securisation des fonds. qui a pris la decision des deplacer et des transferer ceux-ci dt
Kigali a Gitarama?
REP: Le GVT et les banques, NZEZABERA Ephrern et Massoriga Denis les fondes de pouvoir de la
BCR.
11. Qui a pris Ia decision de tranferer r administration de la Banque de Kigali aGitamara?
12. Qui prend les decisions de transferer, muter Ie personnel de la BNR d' un departernent a
r autre ar interne ou a une autre institution bancaire au gouvernernental?
REP: Le conseil d'administration de la banque.
13. Qui a Ie pouvoir de nommer le gouverneur de la Banque et de Ie destituer?
REP: Le President de la Republique via le Ministre des Finances.
14. Qui a donne les ordres au Gouverneur de la Banque Nationale 'du Rwanda?
REP: C' est rnoi qui lui ecrit pourqu' il reunisse tous les fonds disponibles et de solliciter les autres
banques du Rwanda, er de rnettre en securite les fonds de ['Etat.
15. Quel montant a ere securise en Franc Rwandais, en US, autres et en Travellers cheques?
Peut-on dire 22 milliards FRW?
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REP: 2l milliards de FRW venu de Kigali a Gitararna, ils ant Iaisse 11 milliards 'dans les coffres de la
BNR, les petites coupures de 100 francs et les pieces ont ete laisse la. Ca c' est fait apres ce tra;sfen, ct
s'est fait apres, pas fait en rnerne temps que Ie 12 Avril. Je nai pas de "date, rnais cetait au environ, .
apres Ie 12, les gens de la BNR connaissent la date. De Kigali on a cherche le responsable des agents
avec lesclefs, C' est ceux-la rnerne qui ant transfere l' argent et qui ont continue d'etre responsable de c
fonds, on n'a rien change, c'est le responsable du dept du tresor avec ses collaborateurs, il a suivi a
Gisenyi et Goma. C'est les memes personnes qui ant les documents, il y a BAGANIZI Wel1ars, Kaissi
et Ie Gouverneur Denis NTIRUGIHUMBAZI, R\VABUTOGO, KlllIANUKA. HABAMENSHI
Innocent, il est tres important, il est second all gouverneur, c' est lui qui rn' a rernplace, c' est lui qui
donnait les ordres quand le gouverneur etait absent.
16. Combien, quel rnontant les autres Banques ont donne au fourni ala Banque Nationale
Du Rwanda ou au gvt.?
REP: Suite aux problemes de fonds pour les approvisionnernents a I'etranger, je ne sais pas ce que les
banques ant donne, ni Ie montant, ni le rapport
Ia mission faite en Europe, rnais le but etait de
transferer les fonds 'de leurs correspondants dans le compte des correspondants de Ia BNR a Paris. Dan
cette mision, il y avait MASSONGA Denis ( serait en prison a Kigali), dernandez lui sur quel compte,
rnoi je ne sais pas.
Le Gouverneur voulait aller aux USA, rnais n' a pas eu son visas. La premiere' mission a eu lieu en
de
Allernagne.
17. Lars de la Mission organisee aButare dans la sernaine du 12 au 16 avec le Directeur du Budget M.
Nkiliyehe Mclane , afin dinviter la Prefecture a verser ses avoirs a la cornptabilite de Gitarnara, soit u
rnontant de 535 millions, en FRyV au autres devises, celle-ci a-t-elle verse ces fonds?
REP: OUT, Je ne peux pas dire exacternent comment 9U a ete utilise, consultez Ie cornptable de
Gitararna.
17.a. Vous etes-vous financer a rnerne ces fonds. A quel tin ils ant ete utilises?
REP: J' ai dernande au directeur de la BK de transferer son argent et il a refuse, il n' a pas voulu bouger
qu'il n' avait pas la competence et que le Beige ne voulait pas.
18.a. Y-a-t-il dautres Prefectures qui ont recu Ia rnerne invitation et ont-elles fourni des fonds
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pour combien?
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REP: II n'en a pas dautres.jai dernande que Ruhango devait.le faire car i1 allait tomber aux mains du
FPR, mais ne crois pas que de I' argent est venu de lao
18.b. Quand ces demandes ont ere faites? Si via dernande officielle et les fonds ont ere a qui?
Le caissier de la Banque d'Epargne du Rwanda avait dernande de mettre a l'abri des fonds, il sest cad
chez -lui, il est venu nous dire a-t-il moyen de sauver cette argent. On lui a dit demande la au FPR . Le
GVT FPR avait organise I' ouverture de ces coffres et le nouveau gouverneur avait deja ere nornme. II )
avait pour 500 millions de FRW.
19. Qui etait le gouverneur de la Banque Nationale du Rwanda?
REP: NTIRUGIHU~{BAZI Denis.
20. Acombien lavance speciale dernandee et obtenue aupres du gvt. pour 1 milliard 200
millions FRW ou 800 millions FR\V a fa Banque Nationale du Rwanda destinees au paiement des
salaires. ec a qui a-t-elle ete versee? Salaires et FAR, detaille svp?
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REP: 1.2 millions pour les salaires, Ies depenses de fonctionnement. On demande un decouvert, une
avance de compte, le directeur du tresor utilise pour toutes les demandes de paiement adressees au min
des finances, fa direction du tresor donne les ordres de payer eels factures au tels demandes de fonds a
I'interieur ou aI' exterieur, alors on ne peut pas dire, faut aller verifier aux dossiers de la BNR, car cellt
ci execute les ordres qui viennent du min.des finances. Le 500rJ;lillions de 10. Caisse d'Epargne, c' etait
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une avance de Ia BNR au GVT pour desinterresser les deposants, les epargnants, c' est une re-aUocatiot-j
de budget.
2a.a. La reunion de la BAD a Nairobi au milieu de rnai, C'etait quoi la raison de celle-ci?
REP. BAD, Banque Africaine de Developpernent qui a son siege a Abijan en Cote d'Ivoire, dont Ie
Rwanda etait membre, je suis alle a I' assernblee gerierale, a la reunion des min.des Finances. Non, il n' .
a pas de fonds Rwandais deposes ala BAD.
2a.b. Aviez-vous differents budgets a administrer, Disons otficiel et non officiel?
REP: Y a pas de budget non officiel, je n'en connais pas. NOLlS avons un budget ordinaire et un budget
de developpernent gere par Ie min. du Plan.
2a.c. Le budget de fonctionnement gerer par Ie MINADEF, Augustin BIZIMANA et l'autre par
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Min. du Plan Augustin NGIRABATWARE, le budget de Developpernent, est-ce que vous aviez droit (
regard sur ceux -ci?
REP: Tout les ministres passaient par Ie min des finances, il avait un budget par dept. rnais Ie paiement
etaient fait par Ie min des finances. II n' y a vait pas de budgets paralleles, rnais je ne peut pas affirmer
que j' ai controle toutes Ies depenses. Le Plan etait competent pour administrer, c' est le budget, ce que
j' ai entendu dire par la caissier de I'Etat, arrive a Gisenyi, Ie Min, du Plan a tirer plusieur cheques sur c
compte, je lui ai dernande cornbien, il m' a dit qu ~ ~l.. ne savait pas rnais queles documents sent- a- Gorna
chez sa rnaman, il avait droit de signature, c' est lui qui signait.
C' est un budget surles projets et financer par les aides exterieurs, chaque projet devait passe par Ie M~
du Plan, que ce soit import/export ou locaux.. Wellars, je le vois regulierernent, il a laisse sa mallette f
sa rnaman. celle-ci est entree au Rwanda et elle est en prison a Gisenyi.
Question: Toi en rant que Min. des Finances, etais-tu au courant? Celui-ci ne m' a den dit, j' ai su qu'il
avait signe des cheques seulernent quand je suis arri ve ici a. Nairobi. Le min. du Plan, c' etait
NGIRABAT\VARE Augustin.
20.d. De quelle facon les entrees cornptables etaient-elles faites? Sous quel rubrique?
REP: Voir le Min. du Plan ou la BNR, car c'est eux qui passaient les ecritures.
20.e. Avez-vous eu connaissance de I' emission de plusieurs cheques et les raisons et le pourquoi
de ceux-ci?
REP: NON
21. Avez-vous touche aux reserves en or et autres reserves de la Banque, ou sont-elles
entreposees?
REP: Demande a Wellars qui etait ala BNR quand on a dernenage les fondset y rna dit qu'il navait
pas d' or, sauf une petite quanti tee sur les saisies ~t celle-ci est reste la. Je ne peut pas dire pour les
reserves, voir le Gouverneur de la BNR.
22. Le carburant a la pompe rapportait-il beaucoup?
REP: Non, c' est nous qui nous sommes approvisionne en carburant, C' est l' Etat qui consornmait et or.
pas paye.
23. Que savez-vous exacternent de ou des aventures des travellers cheques Thomas Cook et
Visas?
REP: Ces cheques ont ete l' objet de l' arnbargo et nous avons eu des ennuis avec.
24. Visas et Thomas Cook avaient avise la BNR de detruire Ies cheques de voyages que Ie
Colonel BAGASORA avaient en sa possession, qui a donne I' ordre ala BNR de ne pas les detruire et
pourquoi?
, ,
,
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REP: Personne ma donne I'ordre de ne pas les detruire etje ne suis pas au courant de cette ordre·la.,
verifier avec la BCR et la BK. Nous on a appris que les cheques avaient ete frappes d'opposition. QUaI
en Mai, apres que Bagosora ~'en soit servi, si on l'uvait su, on aurait rnerne .pas essayer de s'en servir.
On savait que les cheques de voyage eraient utilisables. On a dernande et donner des cheques ades zen
en besoin ailleurs et eux-ci 5e sent fait bloques.
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25. Qui a decide de prendre ces cheques pour acheter des armes et munitions?
REP: Quand il y ell l'ambargo, Ie GVT a decide de chercher des approvisionnements sans passer par Ie
commandes, car celles-ci ne pouvaient pas passer a cause de 1'urnbargo, rnais il n' y avait pas de devise
alors le GVT a decide que ce soit les detenteurs des cornptes en devises soient utilises et que les
deposants scient rernbourses en FR\V, alors fallait voir ou se trouver des devises. C' est comme ca que
BNR et la BCR ont dit qu' ils deposaient des TCS, alors le GVT Do decider que ces cheques soient
avances a la BNR pour etre utiliser dans les approvisionnernents. C' est le President de la Republique e
Bagosora qui ont decide denvoyer ces gens en mission.
Question: Est-ce Bagosora Ie GYT. REP: Non, c' est le consei1 des ministres. On ne sait pas comment (
a precede a cette emission, car s'est NZIZORERA Joseph, Bagosora et Minadef, car 11s ont recu la .
mission d' aller a l' exterieur car ils pouvaient obtenir des annes et partaient pour Gorna, car le
fournisseur etait de l~. Sont alles a Gorna, Ie fournisseur, non je ne Ie connais pas. Apres on a appris
qufls etaienr rendus aKinshasa. Apres Kinshasa, j 'ai YU Bagosoraa Gornaquand on avaient fui, il etait
. dans les camps de refugier aGorna. A Gisenyi.Je PJesident rna appele pour savoirsi ca avait marche,
tout Ie rnondese demandait pourquoi ces gens n' etaient pas venus. On a appris que les TC avaient ere
bloques, j' ai rernis le dossier au Gouverneur. S' ils ont envoye queIqu' un, c' est au niveau de Minadef
pour le receptionnernent. II y a eu deux missions en deux tranches et I'echec.
26. Qui a remis ces cheques a M. Bagasora, y-a-t-il des preuves de transaction validant ces
..'
emissions de cheques travellers? au pourrions-nous crouver celles-ci?
REP: Les cheques ont ere pris de la BCR, ils ontete ceder par la BCR a. la BNR et donner a Bagosora,
les cheques ont ere enregistre dans les comptes de la BCR et de la BNR. TIs ont utilise i'helicoptere pOI
aller a Gitararna. II y a des gens qui etaient partis des Ie debut, Ie declanchernent de la guerre au village
Bagosora est aile le chercher en helicoptere pour qu' i1 vienne travailler, je ne sais pas s' ill' a force a. a!
au s' iis a refuse au pris par la force, en tout cas personne est venu se plaindre quils avaient fait l' obje
de menaces. Bagosora a ere I' homme clef, il a ete remarquable et rernarquer. Pour ces cheques, quand i
sont venus pour la deuxierne tranche, j' ai eu des inquietudes, i1s sont partis avec des TCS et n' ont rien,
c'est pas normal et j'ai vu KABAl"IDA rn'a dit dans sa chambre a. Gitarama, "ecoute, c'est eux et j 'ai
toute.la confiance et j' autorise la deuxieme tranche. Essaye de tomber Sur quelqu un de Ia garde
Presidentielle, car cest elle qui a dresse les barrages, c'est celle-ci qui est al'origine, qui a donne les
ordres, etaient-ils incontrolables, Ils etaient choisis par les gens de la maison. Chauffeur ici qui venait (
la farnille, c' est Ie chauffeur d' Habyarirnana, ici aNairobi, i1 s' appelle Louis, pour le nom de famille ?'
II est marie a la soeur du President, i1 reste a Il\tlAR.~ DAILVIA ESTATE, le 787, a verifier.
27. Savez-vous avec qui M. Bagasora a fait affaire dans la transaction avec Botela Bompesse?
REP: Non, BAGOSORA est parti en disant qu' il avait un fournisseur et je ne Ie connaissait pas
28. Sur les faux recus d' achat de medicaments, et le~ contrats secrets d' acha.t? d' armes que
.
.
savez-vous sur ~a?
REP: rien, je ne suis pas au courant.
29. QueI a ete Ie role d' Alfred Kalissa en Afrique du Sud et de r achat des annes aux
Scheylelles? Celui de Bagasora? Qui lui a donne Ies travellers cheques, ($402,850.00 US)?
REP: l' ai entendu parler de la mission de NZIZORERA et d~ BAGOSORA aux Scheycelles
j' ai seulement encendu dire que ces gens se sont retrou yeS la et ne disaient pas toute la verite.
o
2 ierne entrevue: BAGOSORA, NZIZORERA et BIZIMANA de la Minadef sent alles faire un'"Voyage"~
ensembles en Afrique du Sud pour acheter des armes.Jls n' ant pas obtenu d' arrnes er auun rapport
ete fourni, rnerne Ie President s' est inquiete, il ant fait Gorna, Kinshasa et les Sechelles.
~
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~
30. Comment expliquez-vous que la rnerne serie de travellers cheques a servie a achete des
~
billets d' avions pour $14,000.00 US achete par t' Arnbassadeur du Rwanda au Zaire, pour Ie President :~
Rwandais et son entourage? II est evident que quelquun a coordonne Ie controle de remission des
cheques de voyages quelque part?
REP: je n'en sais den, il avait une somme pour I' Afrique du Sud cancelle, une avion avait ete loue a ;j
Gorna, je ne suis pas au courant de cette ordre d' achat..
J l. Est-ce fa decision, du Min. De fa Defence Bizirnana Augustin, vous-rneme, Bagasora ou JOSePh!
Nzirorera, quel est son titre et Ie role de Nzirorera? Y-a-t-il quelquun dautre dans cette affaire inconr 1
'!
de nous?
,J
REP: C' est Iadecision du premier Ministre Kabanda, il avait confiance en eux.
32. L 'utilisation des cheques de voyage a-t-elle ete voter ou decreter officiellement par Ie GVT? La
remise au remission des ces fonds a-t-elle ere faite au niveau de la BACAR ou aceluide la Banque de
Commerce? OU pourrait-on localiser les documents de cette au ces transactions? A Gitarama? La
succursale de la Banque de Commerce de Gitararna est-elle encoreouverte actuellement
REP: C'est toute les devises, c 'est Ie GVT qui a pris la decision.On parlait rnerne pas de budget, toutes
les devises etaient bloquees et utiliser a des fins de guerre, il n' etait pas question de budget.
33. Qui est Guiseppe Avzaradel un Zairois et quel role a-t- joue dans les transactions entourant les
cheques de voyages et achats d' arrnes?
34. Corrunent ses depenses ont ere comprabilisees.
35. Qui etait Ie dir.gen. de la Banque de Commerce et etait a Gisenyi et d' apres linfo recue se
desinteressait du sort de l' entreprise? Au niveau bancaire, qui dirigeait, etalt le leader?
REP: J\;lVU:(EKURE, il esc decede, on disait qu' il avait Ie sida, il est decede en juillet aGoma, mais i1
etait lao Il avait des directeurs qui operaient, ca ne l' ernpechait pas de rester
niveau des commandes,
mais il continuait de travailler. C' etait Ephrern et Masonga etle president du conseil d' administration
SEBAHAR.A.HAKWA qui proposaient que Ie directeur soit lirnoge et a cause de sa faiblesse et de sa
rnaladie. Ia demande a ete verbale, on etaient a Gisenyi a la fin de Juin, je ne trouvait pas I' opportunite
de changer les gens au niveau de la situation. Je ne sais pas si les decisions prisent l' ant ete a son insu,
maisje l 'ai vu aGitarama et Gisenyi. Je crois qu'il etait avec Bagosora, si jai bonne mernoire quand i1
sont venus chercher les Tcs, ils etaient ensemble. Je I' ai vu plusieurs fois, mais il souffrait, lui, il refuse
de quitter son poste.
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36. Expliquez-moi le role du General Bararnoto, chef de la garde civile Zairoise dans cette
transaction. (540,000.00 US, Eric Broens de Centrafar, produit pharmaceutique
S lO,OaO.oous, et Si20.000.00 US a Morayo?
REP: Ne sais pas
37. Si je ne me trompe pas, le gvt.a transfere le 2 au 3 Juin 94 de Gitararna a Mayarnba.
(Prefecture de Gisenyi). Qui a pris cette decision?
REP: On est entre dans la salle a 9:00 ANI, un messager passe un morceau de papier a KABANDA qui
lu Ie papier et il a die messieurs ceux qui one peur peuvent deja partir, car Ie FPR est aMyakaramosie, i
avancait et se rapprochait, c' etait la panique, on s' esc leve, chacun courraient er voir comment ils
fuiraient, c' etait la debandade, on s' est dirige vers Gisenyi, lapanique, moi je suis passe par Kibuye, la
population a fui.
.
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38. Qui a assure Ie deroulernent du transfert de fond de Ia Banqce Nauonale du Rwanda, ala
Banque de Commerce du Rwanda, a Gisenyi?
REP: La coordination a ete faite.par HABAi\-'IESHI Innocent le controleur general et le second du
Gouverneur, I'argent etait sous la garde de deux rnilitaires. Le caissier de l'Ecat rn'a die que s'est
Bagosora qui I'a aide a sortir de I'argent de la Banque.
39. Ou pourrions-nous trouver les documents sur ce transfert? Cette Banque est-elle encore
ouverte?
REP: Wellars, c est toujours lui qui et ses agents qui ant les dossiers.
I
40. Que savez-vous du contrat de Kabiligi avec un fournisseur chinois, Avec queI de il a fait
affaire?
REP: Je rr'ai pas vu le contrat, non rnerne au conseil du GVT on en a pas parle. Il etait General.
41. Quand a ere fait le transfert des fonds de Gisenyi aGorna. Avez-vous le nom et r adresse de
la
.
au des Banques Commerciales Zairoises en face de lhotel wfASK?
REP: Je sais qu' a Goma if a deux batirnents a'cote de l' Hotel Mask, la BNR a depose dans une et la
BCR a depose dans l' autre. Pour la BNR c' est Wellars et 3 autres, ils etaient avec leur chef et avec leui
dossiers. Pour la BCR, c'est Ephrern qui s'en est occupe, le rnontant je ne sais pas.
41.a. L' argent de lao Banque Commerciale transfere par Jeep Parjero, a-t-elle ete deposee a
I'Union Zairoise des Banques? A-t-on de la documentation acet effet?
cJ
41.b. Les fonds de la Banque Nationale du Rwanda et ceux de la Banque de Kigali auraient ete
arnene ensembles par Denis VTIRUGIRlrvrBABAZI et Zacari et deposer ala Banque
Zairoisr .
du Commerce exterieur en exces de 30 Billions FR\V ou 100 millions USD. Ces
faits sent-is
exacts
REP: HABAMESHI Innocent aurait les papiers et fait Ie transport.
Ala BNR , selon l' information recue a Gorna, il reste 17 milliards FR\V, que les Zairois ont enferme
dans leur banque. Le troisierne jour, on nous a die qu' il avair un fax. qui disait que I' argent etait
confisque, on a continue ademander pour savoir ce qui se passe, les chefssont passes aGorna, on leur.
a pose la question et il ne nous on jarnais repondu. Je ne sais pas si le FPR c' est rendu maitre de cette
argent. S'il y a eu acces par d'autres , non, le Gouverneur de Goma nous a die qu'il attendait les
instructions. Les documents de reprise sont aux mains d'Innocent.
Quandj'ai quitte mes fonctions, personne m'a dit que l'argent avait ete retire. Au Zaire on a su quel'argent de la BCR etait retoumee au Rwanda, , on ne sait pas comment, on a su ca d'une femme fonde
de pouvoir dans cette banque, elle s' appelle Monique.
42. Qui a fait Ie convoyage de Gisenyi et leurs depots aGoma? (Cassana Cleophas au M.
Habamenshi Innocent)?
-. ,
.
REP: De Gisenyi aGorna, j' ai dernande qui avait coordonne ce transfert de fonds, Wellars a repondu
qu'il avait passe la nuit chez sa maman et que les fonds ont ete mis a bord par HABANlESHI Innocent
c' est lui qui a le papier ou ill' a rernis au Gouverneur de la BNR.
Pour la BCR et BK, je ne sais pas comment les fonds ant ete transfere, mais il avait un responsable
qu' on a nornrne avant et qui ont fait la remise avec les Zairois. Les Zairois y gardaient routes les clefs e
on ne pouvaient pas avoir acces sans qu'Ils le veuillent.je ne sais pas si quelqu'un y a accede et s'ils c
corrompu des gens au Zaire.
43. Pourquoi MiHabamenshi Innocent sest vu confier les Finances lors du rernaniernent du lier
Novembre 94 a Bukavu?
REP: L'histoire de man limogage a commence au Rwanda quand je suis entre de rna mission aNairobi
c' est la premiere fois que j' ai entendu parler Kabanda. II me reprochait d' avoir ete absent sans son
accord, quand il s' est fait explique que c' etait Ie President de la Republique qui avait signe, il s' est
calme, Ia deuxierne fois on a quitte Gitararna en debandade, j'avais une belle farnille et je l'ai conduite
"
..
e
Kibouille, 20 personnes et je les ai aide a fuir et Ie lendernain je l' ai rejoins, j' ai appris qu' il avait fait .~
une reunion et lirnoger Ie President, Ie prefer de Gitararna et Ie Col. NDENGEyrNKA et comme j'etai:~
absent, Kabanda a dernande ou jetais, personne ne savait, le lendernain on m'a dir qu'il s'eeait plaint d~
mol. 11 avait envoye ses enfunts au Chad des avril 1994. Moi je me disais, sauve ta famille apres je
suivrai les autres. .1' ai s.u au Zaire que j' erais en danger, j' ai effectue une mission a Kibouille et j' ai vu
prefer de Gitararna et que le prefer KAYSHEMA voulait Ie liquider;ces enfants ont fur avec les miens
il avait garde les miens a Gitarnara, rnoi j' ai garde les siens. J'ai ete voirles autorites et j' ai die je viens.
dapprendre que Ie prefer est en danger. Il rri'a expiique que c'etait pas lui rnais les Interharnwees qui It
qualifiaient d' etre pro FPR, il m' a dit de lui faire le message qu' il assurerait sa protection, en plus j' avr
avise des paysans de ne plus jarnais, jarnais tuer, et j' ai donne un message de pacification, j' ai dit S1
quelqu' un tue quelqu' un, il devra etre tuer lui aussi, On a raconte qu' un Ministre etait en train de
condarnner les gens qui luttent contre le FPR. Le president de mon parti m' a die que j' etais en danger s
on navait pas fui.jai dit pourquoi, on (as accuse davoir tenu un language qui decourage la populatic
et on pensait que tu etais pro FPR, tu etais deja en danger. ;\10n lirnogage est venu au rnois de
Novembre, cetait toujours celui-ci qu'on proposait et il netait merne pas de men parti, a Bukavu,
Kabanda a voulu faire une petite equipe et il faut reduire, y a pas dagriculrure, rnais sauvons toujours J
partis politiques.
.. Le President a donne a Kabanda Ie. pouvoir denornrner lesgens qu'il voulait, alors il a nornrne les gem
qu'i1 voulait en excluant notre parti, u a fait une equipe de sept personnes, dont cinq du Nord et deux d
Sud, il s'est fait-aider parles rnilitaires BIZINHNGUet KlBILIGI, qui eux voulaient, demandaient qu' c
s' en aille y compris Ie President et le premier ministre, finalernent ils sent restes, il n' a pas eux
d' explications, ils ont prete serment sans inviter personae a la rnaison du President.
BAGASORA, je l' ai pas Vll a Bukavu, if etait a Goma. Kabanda venait et y passaic la nuit chez-lui et y
tenait des reunions chez lui. Je ne suis pas alle chez lui, alors que j' etais exc.1.u, pourquoi?
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44. Quand vous parlez de prelevernents SOLlS forme d avancesspeciales ant ete effectues par le
personneL
hauteur de 500 millions de franc rwandais pour assurer Ie paiement des salaires du
Quels formes d'avances? Le gvt.du Rwanda a-t-il pu honorer sa detre?
REP: On a donne l' argent ala Prefecture de Gisenyi, car c' etait des montants importants, j' ai ete voir 1Commandant de l' armee a Gisenyi, un General, pour lui demander la securite pour garder cette argent;
l' exterieur et que la banque ne voulait pas reprendre l' exedent, alors j' ai eu trois militaires Zairois qui
ant assure la garde de ces fonds et Ia periode de la paye de mai, juin et juiHet 1994. Naus disions aux
gens que la paye etait aux mains du FPR ec que nous n' ~cions plus responsable et de retourner au
Rwanda, que notre gestion prenaie fin. La paye etait supervise par man Direoteur de Cabinet
NTIRUMWE Gervais. C' etair des FRW obtenu de'la BNR, no'n du Zaire, done il n'y avait pas de dette
Au debut a Goma, nous avions poursuivi Ia paye des 5alaires en liquide, les gens exigeait ~a, alors les
gestionnaires de credit des ministeres ont fait la Uste de paye du personnel, c' est cette liste qui a servi a
les payer, cette argent appartenait deja a Ia BNR, meme 5i elle etait deja depose au Zaire, c' est une
avance de la BNR, mais on avait pris une encente avec la banque Zairoise.
43. Pourquoi M. Habamenshi Innocent s'est vu confier les Finances lars du remaniement du 1ier
Novembre 94 aBukavu?
REP: L'histoire de mon limogage a commence au Rwanda gunnd je suis entre de rna II'jssion a Nairob:
c' est 1a premiere fois que j' ai entendu parkr Kabanda. 11 me reprochait d' a v,~ir ete absent sans son
accord, quand il s'est fait expiique que c'etait Ie President de la'Republique qui avait signe, i1 srest
calme, 141 deuxieme fois on a quitte Gicarama en deband41de, j'avais !jne belle famille etje 1'ai conduite
Kibouille, 20 personnes et je les ai aide a fuir et Ie Iendemain je l' ai rejoins, j' ai appris qu' il avait fait
une reunion et limoger Ie President, Ie prefet de Gitarama et Ie Col. NDENGEYINK..;, et comme j' etai~
absent, Kabanda a demande au j'etais, personne ne savait, Ie lendemain on m'a dit qu'il s'et41it plaint d
moi. 11 avait envoye ses enfants au Chad des avril 1994. Moi je me disais, sauve ta famille apres je
suivrai les autres. l' ai su au Zaire que j' etais en danger, j' ai effectue une mission a Kibouille et j' ai VlJ
prefet de Gitarama et que Ie prefet KAYSHEMA voulait Ie liquider, ces enfants ant fui avec Ies miens
il avait garde les miens a Gitamara, mol j' ai gardeIes siens. l' ai ete voir Ies autorites et j' ai dit je viens
d' apprendre que le prefet est en danger. II m' a explique que·c' etait pas lui mais les Interhamwees qui it
.'
'
.
e
•
qualifiaient d'etre pro FPR, il ma dit de lui faire le message qu'il assurerait sa protection, en plus j'av:
avise des paysans de ne plus jarnais, jarnais tuer, et j' ai donne un message de pacificarion. j' ai die si
quelqu'un tue quelqu'un, i1 devra etre tuer lui aussi. On a raconte qu'un Ministre emit en train de
condarnner Ies gens qui luttent contre le FPR. Le president de man parti m' a die que i' etais en danO'er s
, on, n' avait pas fui, j' ai die pourquoi, on t' as accuse d' avoir tenu un language qui decourage la populatia
et on pensait que tu etais pro FPR, tu etais deja en danger, Mon limogage est venu au raois de
Novernbre, c'etait toujours celui-ci qu'on proposait et il netait rnerne pas de mon parti, a Bukavu,
Kabanda a voulu faire une petite equipe et il faut reduire, y a pas d' agriculture, rnais sauvons toujours I
parris politiques,
Le President a donne a Kabanda le pouvoir de nommer les gens qu'il voulait, alors il a nornrne Ies gem
qu'il voulait en excluant notre parti, it a fait une equipe de sept personnes, dont cinq du Nord et deux d
Sud, il sest fait aider par les rniliraires BIZINIINGU et KlBILIG£, qui eux voulaient, demandaient qu'c
s' en aille y compris le President et Ie premier ministre,finalement ils sent restes, il n' a pas eux
d' explications, ils ont prete serment sans inviter personne a la rnaison du President.
BAGASORA,je l'ai pas vu a Bukavu, il etait a Goma. Kabanda venait et y passait la nuit chez-lui et y
tenait des reunions chez lui. Je ne suis pas alle chez lui, alors que j'erais exclu, pourquoi?
44. Quand vous parlez de prelevernents sous forme davances speciales ont ete effectues par le
Gv
hauteur de 500 millions de franc rwandais pour assurer le paiement des salaires du
personnel.
Quels formes davances? Le gvt.du Rwanda a-t-il ~u honorer sa dette?
REP: On a donne I' argent a Ia Prefecture de Gisenyi, car c' etaitdes mcntants irnportants, j' ai ere voir I·
Commandant de l' arrnee a Gisenyi, un General, pour lui demander la securite pour garder cette argent;
I' exterieur et que la banque ne voulait pas reprendre I' exedent, alors j' ai eu trois rnilitaires Zairois qui
ant assure 1'1 garde de ces fonds ct 1'1 periode de 1'1 paye de rnai, juin er juillet 1994. Nous disions aux
gens que la paye etait aux mains du FPR et que nous ri'ecicns plus responsable et de retourner au
Rwanda, que notre gestion prenait fin. La paye etait supervise par man Directeur de Cabinet
NTIRUN[\vc Gervais. C'etait des FR\tV obtenu de la BNR, non du Zaire, done il n'y avait pas de dette
Au debut a. Gorna, nous avions poursuivi la paye des salaires en liquide, les gens exigeait ca, alors les
gestionnaires de credit des minis ceres ont fait la liste de paye du personnel. cest cette liste qui a servi a
les payer, cetre argent appartenait deja a la BNR, merne si elle erait deja depose au Zaire, c' est une
avance de Ia BNR, mais on avait pris une entente avec la banque Zairoise.
45. au pourrions-nous trouver la correspcndance des autorites Zairoises notifiant au Gvt. en
exil.du fait qu' elles interdisaient Ie paiernents des salaires surleur territoire et
million~
n' aorisaient plus la sortie des fonds encreposes dans Ies Banque Zairoises? Le 500
mouvements de
a-t- i1 ete depense, OU sont les documents? Comment peut-on suivre les
fond?
REP: Ils ont blogues, on a eu une premiere tranche, its ont eux peur, car leurs propres fonctionnaires
etaient pas payes, peut-erre que Kigali est intervenu lui aussi, je n' ai jamais vu Ie FAX. Apres Ie GVT I
Kigali est venu negocier cette argent et il ne l' a pas obtenu. :Nous aussi nous avions continue a
demander et on n'ajamais eu de reponse, jusqu'au moment ou Kigali a change Ia monnaie ce qui a ete
fait quand j' avais quitte Ie GVT, des gens ont eu des problemes, surtout dans Ies camps de refugies. Le
President leurs a dit de garder leur argent, c~r elle servira plus tard. .Nroi je leurs ai die que j' etais plus
ministre et que si je disais quelques choses, j' aurai des problemes avec ce minisere qui m' a remplace.
46. QueI est Ie role d'Ephrem NKEZABERA dans ce transfert? Celui de Gatiery? Celui de
Cassana?
46.a. Ephrem aurait fait des missions en Allemagn'e et en France comme chef de delegation pour
Ia Banque Nationale du Rwanda et 1'1 Banque de Kigali, etes VallS au courant s11 a transfere
de
l' argent a Ia Banque de Paris et de l' utilisation de ces fonds?
REP: La premiere mission, je ne sais pas dans quel pays ils ant ete, mais iis 'etaient destines a
l' Allemagne. L'objet etait d'utiIiser et de transferer les fonds au cQmpte de la BNR.
II y avait JYfassonga, Kaissire, Ie Gouverneur Denis, ne sait pas· 5i Ephrein y etait, ils n' ont jamais donn
de rapport,
_------
~------------------_._.----_ ..._----------~_ ...
I.
, ~
..
Je sais que le nurnero un devait aller aux USA er il n' a pas eude visas, iis ont ete envoye en Europe
seulement.
Wellars rn'a inforrne qu'il y a eu un transfert de un million, rnais je n' ai pas eu de rapport sur ce sujer,
C'est Ie dossier de la BNR, Denis peut vous informer.
47. Connaissez-vous les montants des avoirs Rwandais au Zaire, ca a du cornplique votre tache
quand Ie Zaire a gele vos avoirs?
REP: 17 milliards FRW pour la BNR seulement, le resre pour Ia BCR et B K, je ne sais pas.
48. Ou sont ces fonds? Qui est au sont responsables du transfert et du suivi de ceux-ci?
49. Ces fonds ont-ils ete deposes au nom du Gvt Rwandais ou bien sous d' autres noms? AvezVOl
les nurneros de folio, qui est autorise et habilite a negocier dans ces comptes?
REP: C' etait indique dans les dossiers. L' argent, ce dossier existait, c' etait pas des comptes des prives,
des individus. Ce qu' on a dit quand le FPR a pris Ie pouvoir, c' est qu' il va faire bloquer les cornptes d
GVT., alors Ie premier rninistre a dernande au Gouverneur en prevision de ce qui allait se passer de voi
comment il pourrait mettre aI' abri des fonds qui pourraient etre utiliser par Ie GVT en exil, C' est le
Gouverneur de la BNR qui etait responsable. Quand j' ai quitte, j' ai appris que Ie Gouverneur avait
organise ce transfert et qu'il demeurait responsable de ce monta,nt transfere er restait signataire sur ce
compte
qui etait destine a Kambanda, c'est.Kabanda qui le sait car c' est.lui
qui a nornrne les
.
.
gestionnaires de ce compte ainsi que le Gouverneur et HAB nq.~"\f A. JYIoi, je n' etait pas au courant du
montant et ce qu'on a fait avec, j'etais en dehors.
11 y a beaucuop de gens de la banque qui ant sorti des fonds durant la debandade, on avait cree la zone
turquoise, mais si les gens etaient restes au pays on aurait pas eu ces problernes.
II n' est pas au courant si des gens ont vole sur les cornptes des morts
C' etait la BNR qui agissait au nom du GVT rwandais et les autres banques au nom de leurs banques
..
respectives.
50. Qui etait Ie ou les personnes en autorite pour avoir acces a ceux-ci? Comment peut-on les localiser.
adresses, tel. Etc?
51. Qui faisaient parti du cornite de crise de la Banque?
REP: Je ne sais pas, c' est une affaire interne de la banque,
o
52. Ou sont Ephrern Nzezabera, Isakar, Massonga Denis, Kageri Georges, ( BCR) la gerante de J' agenc
de Gitararna, Nyirarnfabakuze Daniella, Sabahakwe, pres du conseil dadminisration de la banque.
Cyrille de la banque de Kigali, Denis NTIRUGIRLLvI BADNZI rt Felix Kaissyre de la Banque National
"
~.
REP: 1. Wellars, il est ici a Nairobi, il reste ou Ie chauffeur d'Habyarimana, je n'ai pas son nurnero mai
je peux l' avoir.
.
.
2. J\'IBARAGE Celestin, il serait dans les forets du Zaire, il se trouvait a Bukavu, on I' a vu dans les
camps du Sud du Kivu.
3. Massonga, il serait en prison quelque part au Rwanda.
Ephrern, i1 serait en Afrique de l'Ouest,
53. Etes-vous au courant de transferts de fonds du Gvt. ou de la Banque dans des comptes
personnels?
REP: NON
54. Etiez-vous au courant des transactions suivantes et le but de celles-ci? ( Voir liste).
REP: Il faudrait voir avec les banques, dans les dossiers de la BNR, quand les paiements ont ete
executes, va voir ala BNR, dernande aWellars'. Je crois qu'on en a autorise, aussi surtout aux niveau
des Ambassades, mais c'est possible qu'il yen a qui viennent de d'autres ministeres
.,f.
...
'f-
••
I
l
I
I
55. Que! a ~te le role de Seraphin R\VASUKU~'[BA
l . Au niveau achat d' arrnes?
2. Au niveau des transactions bancaires national et international?
REP: II etait agent de la 8NR.
56. Quel a ete Ie role de Musabe. Ie frere de Bagasora a la BACAR
1. Au niveau dachats darrnes?
REP: Je ne sais pasrnais 8AGOSORA etait la-dedans.
2. Au niveau des transactions bancaires narionale et international?
REP: II etait Directeur de la BACCAR a Gisenyi, il a ouvert la banque. it a dernande des fonds a la BN
car il disait que les societaires voulaient leur argent.
REP: Il etait au Minadef en charge des approvisicnnernents. il a ete envoye en Avril en mission pour dt
arrnes, il n' esc jarnais revenu au Rwanda. Le President voulait savoir pourquoi il n'etait pas revenu et
voulait le limoger. Demandez a Wellars s' il esc parti avec des fonds, ce serais peut-etre des magouilles
dans votre liste en Egypte. il y a des rnontants d' argent important. Les Ambassadeus ont joue un role
1
,
~
t
1
aussi.
57. Que savez-vous sur la rurneur a leffet que Ie G~ner:ll ou Colonnel Kayurnba aurait Detourne
$4,000,000.00U5? Comment il aurait pu faire ca?
REP: Peut-etre au niveau des fournisseurs et dans les cornptes. II etait ici via 4 ou 5 rnois, il aurait quir
';--- ._-.-- --.- _.- -----_ .. '_ . _- ... --- -..---------- ._._-on 'peuts'fnforrner pour savoir. .- -'-'
1
,
,
I
10
I
I
I
I
I
I
,
58. Que savez-vous des encaissernents de commissions qui se faisaient ~ la ~BL par
Majambere Silas. qui serait en France et qui avait un compte cornrnun avec Sagarwa qui aurait et~
bloque soit par l~ gvt. Du Rwanda ou par une banque Rwandaise?
REP: Rien
59. Que savez-vous du rransfert de fond du Min de la Defense, M. Bizirnana Augustin, Ie 14 Juin 199,
de S 1,500,000.00 US sur le compte no: 034723-35 de l' Arnbassade du Rwanda a Paris?
REP: Je ne sais pas.
60. Quel a ete Ie role du Colonel Ntahobari I' attache Militaire aParis, dans .les transactions
d'arrnes?
.
Pour les remises de fonds US suivants:
A) 10. remise dun cheque de 51 ,200.000.00U5 a GPP ( Groupe Prive Capt Barril)?
Qui est le Capt. Baril?
B) 10. remise d' un cheque de 5200.000.00US ar Arnbassade de Kinshasa?
C) 10. remise d' un cheque de $28.000.00 a l' Arnbassade de Washington?
0) la remise dun cheque de $40,000.00 a I' Arnbassade de Nairobi?
E) Un cheque de 103.000 FF a un denornrne Le Beuf? Qui est Le Beuf?
F) le depot d' un cheque de 1,100.000 FF venant de I'Ambassade du Caire et rernbourser
.
par le Capt. Barril?
G) La remise d' un cheque de 1.086,071 FF ~ Robert Bernard Martin, qui est celui-ci?
REP: Ces transactions n' ont jamais ete presence au Ministre des. Finances. y faut que ces gens
s' expliquent.
.
61.A vez-vous, votre Gvt, votre Ministere, celui de 10. defence au dautres Ministeres
cornrnande ou paye via des Cies locales tel que les quincailleries et les irnportateurs I'achat d' outils, tei
que des pelles, des pioches etc ... ? Dans la positive, aviez-vous etabli des rnesures sur la au les tacons
de livrer ces merchandises et a qui?
I
J
"I
I
. . . . . .t
savoir plus long. Wellars demeure a HvlARA DAIMA ESTATE le nurnero 641, il serait dans un camp
refugie a KAKU;VfA au Kenya a 600 kilometres de Nairobi. il est avec le chauffeur de Habyarimana.
AKAZU: C' etait une compagnie qui appartenait ala farnille du President HABYARIMANA, compose
de ·sa femme, ses beaux-freres, c'est un noyau qui forrnait l' entourage du President. C' etai: un noyau dl pour les gens du pays et avaient beaucoup d' argent.
BASABOSE: Il changeait les devises et travaillait pour le Colonel SAGOT\VA. II est un ancien rnilitai
convertit en cornmercant, it serait en URSS, il emit au Zaire apres la guerre.
HABINIANA: II etait consul du Rwanda a Nairobi. Je n'ai pas travaille avec.les Arnbassades.
HABI1vlANA travaillait beaucoup avec Ie Minadef dans des dossiers d' achats d' arrnes, c' etaient des
dossiers confidentiels entre ceux-ci, lui Emmanuel ne sait rien de ca, Merne que Ki\BANDA refusa
refusa a une reunion a Murnanba de montrer les achats darrnes. Ce ri'etait pas seulement a rnoi qu'on
cachait ca. ils avaient ses propres contacts et je ne sis pas s ' il n' avait pas confiance en nous.
A1vlBASSADE du ZAIRE: les armes ne sont pas venus, il avait des problernes de trouver des
fournisseurs. verifier les avances faites, c' etait un particulier, pas une societe.
- Je n' at rien fait, rien a ete die au conseil. ]' etais rninistre mais j' ai den vu et la moitie du temps il ri'y
avait pas de rapports. Les gens qui tiraient les Tutsis etaient des gens contre le FPR infiltres.
BAGOSORA aurait selon lui apres le crash de l' avion aurait die aux rnilitaires de la Garde Presidentiel
sur les andes de [a radio de BAGOSORA des instructions de liquider les opposants jusqu'au marin et
ceux-ci ont continues car les FPR avaient encourage etenrag~r Ies gens par leur interventions.
ALCATEL FRANCE: C'est une cornrnande dernande par KABAJ.~DA et faite par BIZliVfJiJ'iA
ASUiYfANI pour des telephones satellitaires pour le president, K.-\BANDA et un autre pour l'Erat rnaj:
de I'armee.
06-08-97 a:minfin.
K0268092
26
(b) The funds fromthe Banque National« du RwtilUla as wen as those ftom the
Banque de Kigali were allegedly brought together by DentS Vtirugtrimbabazt and
Zaccari and deposited in the Banque ZazrolSe du Commerce Exteneur, in excess
ofRwF 30,000 million or US$100 million. Are those accurate facts?
Ans.: Habameshs Innocentallegedly hadthe papersand made the passport
At the BNR, accorcbng to lnformation received In Goma,RwF17,OOO million are
still outstanding and have been locked up by the ZalreaDS U1 their bank. On the
third day. we were told that there was a fax, wbl'}h stated that the moneyhad been
confiscated. We have continued to seek infonnatlonon what is happening. The
cbteDI came to Goma The question was posed to them and they have nevergiven
us an answer I do not know Ifthe RPF IS IJl control of that money Did others
have access to tt? No,. the GovernorofGoma told us that he was waitingfor
instructions Innocent bas the handing-over documents
. When I resigned from office" no person told me that money bad been wtthdrawn.
In Lure, Jt was known that the BCR moneyhad been returned to Rwanda. We do
not know how this was done We got this Jrom a lady. who is cerbfymg officer In
that bank. Her name IS Monique
42.
Whotransported fundsfrom Gisenyi and effected thelcdeposi13 in Goma?
(Cassana Cleophasor Mr Habamenshr Innocent?)
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Ans. From G1senyi to GolDS, I asked who had coordtnated the transferoffunds
Wellars replied that be had spent the night at hismother's house and that it was
HabemestnInnocent who had taken the funds on board. He has the paper or he
has handed it to the DNR Governor
Regarding BCR and B~ I do not know how the funds were transferred But
there was a person in charge who was appointed earlierand who did the
remittance With the Zaiream. The Zal!eanskept all the keys there and access was
possible only when they wished I do not know If anyone bad access thereto or 1f
they had corrupted people in Zaire
43.
Why was Mr.HabamenshiInnocent appomted to the Mintstry of Finance during
the 1 November1994reshufBe in Bukavu?
Ans.
The story ofmy sack began In Rwanda when I returned from my mission to
Nairobi, It was the first time I heardabout Kabanda. He accused me of betng
absent WIthout hIs permission But when It was expJauaed to him that it was the
President altho Repubhc who badsigned, he calmed down The second time we
left Gtarama m chaos. I had a family-an-law and I conducted tbem to Kibouille I
helped 20 people flee and the followingday Ijomed him. I learnt that he had held
a meetingand fired the Chauman, the Prefet orGttarama and Col Ndengey~
and smce I was absent, Kabandaasked of my whereabouts No person knew
The fol1o~n8 day, I was told that be complained about me. He had sent his
children to Chad 10 April] 994. Personally,I told myselfsave your family and
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later~ J will followthe others I knew in Zane that I was in danger
I undertooka
mission to Ksbouille J sawthe Prefet ofGitarBma that PrefetKaysbema'W8I1ted
to ehmmate H1S children had fled Wlth rmne
»,
He had kept my children in
Gitarama and I kepthis I went to see the authorities I sard that I hadJust heard
thatthe Prefet was In danger He explained to me that It was not him but the
Interahamwe who accused hun ofbetng pro-RPF He asked me to send him a
message that he would ensure his protection Furthermore, I had told the Peasant
fiumers never,never to kdl agam, and I sent 001 a message ofpacificabon I said
ifanyone killed any person, he must also be killfoed It was said that a Mimster
was convictingpeople who were fighttng agamstthe RPF My party Chairman
told me that I would be in danger d'we did not flee. I asked why You have been
accused ofhavmg made statements dlSCOurag1ng the population. It was thought
that you were pro-RPF You were already in danger My dismissal came in
November It was always that person that was proposed and he was not even
from my party m Bukavu Kabanda bas wanted to forma small team and It J9
necessary to cut down There was no agriculture but we should sull save the
politrcal pames
The President gaveKabandathe power to appoint the people he wanted, while
excludIng our party He funned a team of seven people' five fromthe North and
two fromthe South. He was helped by soldiers BIZInungu and KibdigJ. thatthey
wanted, asked that we .should go away mcludlns the President and the Pnme
MinIster Finally, they stayedon. They had no explananons. They took the oath
of office without mvitmg anyone to the residence otthe President,
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I saw Bagosora In Bukavu. He was in Goma Kabanda usually came and spent
the night 10 his borneand held m.eetmgs there I did not go to hIs house, whlle I
was excluded, why?
44.
You say that deductions an the form ef'specsal advances, amounbng to RwFSOO
million, 'W81'e operated bythe Government so as to pay staffsalanes. What was
the form ofthose advances? Did the Govemmcnt ofRwanda manage to honour
its debts?
ADs' Money was given to the Gisenyl Prefecture, forthe amounts werehuge I wentto
see the army commander In Gisenyi, a General, to ask rum forsecurityto keep
that money (illegtble) outside. The bank did not want to take back the surplus
Hence, I had three ZaireansoldletSwho ensuredsecunty of those funds dunng the
May" June and July 1994 pay penod. We told the people that the salanes were In
the hands ofthe RPF and that we were DO longer in charge and that our
management ended With the returnto Rwanda. The payment of salaries was
supervised by my Principal PnvateSecretary, Ntuumwe Gervais. The payment
was an Rwandan francs obtained from the BNR and not fromZaue Therefore,
there was no debt At the begmnmgin Goma, we paid salaries In cash The
people requestedthat Hence, the credit managers of mirustries drew up the list of
staffsalaries. That was the list used SQ paytng them That money already
belonged to theBNR. Even ult was already deposited ID Zatre It was an advance
7
from the BNR. But an agreement was reached with the Zaue bank
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45
Could you find us correspondence fromthe authorities of zaire notifymg the
Government in exile that the paymentof salanes on their temtory was forbidden
as welJ as taking out money deposited in Z8Jre banks? The 500 million were
spent, where arethe documents? How canthemovements otthose funds be
traced?
Ans.
TIley were frozen We have got the lim instalment, They are afra1d because their
own civil servants were not paid. Perhaps Kigali also Intervened. I never saw the
tax Subsequently,the Government in Kigah cameto negotiate for the money but
it did not obtain it, We too continued to requestand wenever had an answer until
when KIgali changed currency, which was done wheb I had. Jeft the Government.
People had problems. particularly in refugee camps The presidenttold them to
keep thea money,for It would be used later. Personally, [told them that I was no
longer minister and that 1ft said anything, I would have problems With the
minister whohad replacedme.
46
What was the role ofEphrem Nkezabera in the transfel? That of GatJery? That
of Cassana?
Ephrem allegedlyundertookmissionsto Germany and France, as Head of
delegation, for the Banque Nanonale du Rwanda and the Banquede Krgali Are
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31
you aware ifhe transfettedmoney to the Bflnque de Panos and lfhe used those
funds?
Ans
For the first mission, I do Dot knowthe country to which they went But their
desnnanon wasGennany. The objective was to use and transferthe funds to the
BNR.a~unt
Massonga. Kaissire.Govemor Denis werethere I do not know IfEprem was
there They never produced a report
I know that the leaderhad to go the USA but he did not have the 'VIsa They have
•
beensent only to Europe
Wellars1J1fonned me that one null10n had been tmnsferred, but I have no report
thereon. That IS the BNR file Dents can inform you
47
Do you know the amountsofR.wandan holdings m Zaire? Your task must have
been complicated when Zatre decided to freezeyour assets?
ADs
RwF17.000 for DNRalone. the rest for BCR and B~ I do not know
48.
Where are those funds? Who is in charge oftransfemng and momtoring the
funds?
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32
49.
Were those funds depos1ted under the name of the· country or rather under other
names? Do you have the folto numbers'! Who is authonzed and empoweredto
carry out negotiations in those accounts?
Ans.: It was mdscated in the .files The money., the file existed There were not the
pnvate accounts of lndividaals What was said when the RPF took power Y/BS
that it was gomgto causethe Government accounts to be frozen. Thus,the Prime
Minister requested the Government, m anticipanon of what was 801n8 to happen,
to survey how It could secure funds, whichthe Government in exile could use,
..
The BNR Governor was in charge. When I left, lleamt that the Governor had
organized the S81d transferand that he had allegedly renwned 10 charge ofthe
amount transferred and had his slgnature on that account, which was designed for
Kambanda Kabanda !mOM jt because he appointed the managersoftbat account
as welJ as the Governor and Habimana Personally, I was not aware ofthe
amount and what was done WIth 1t I was outside
There are very many bank people who took out money during the chaos The
Turquoise Zone was established. But had people remained m the counb'y, we
would not have had those problems
He does not know upeople stole fromthe accounts ofpeople dead
The BNR acted on behalfof the GovemmentofRVYanda and the other banks on
behalf oftheir respective banks.
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50
Which person(s)m authonty had access to the said accounts? How can there be
located; their addresses, telephone numbers etc?
51
Ans.. I do not know. It's an mternal matterofthe bank
52.
Where are Ephrem Nzezabera, Isakar, Massonga Denis, Kag6ri Georges (BCR)
Manager of the Gitarama branch,Nyuam&bakuze Daniella.,Sabahakwe, close to
•
the bank's Board of Governors, Cyrille from the KigalJ bank, DenIS Ntuugmm
Bawi rt Febx KalSsyre ofthe Banque Nanonale?
Ans. (1) Wellars 15 here in Nasrobi He stays whereHabyarimana's dover (SIC). I do
Dot know hIS number but I can have rt
(2) Mbarago Celestm is allegedly 10 the foresU ofZa.i.re. He was in Bubvu He
was seen at the camps to the South ofK1vu
(3) Massonga IS allegedly In prison somewhere an Rwanda
Ephrem is alleged to be In West Afnca
S3.
Areaware oCtile transferoffunds from the Government or the bank to personal
accounts?
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-i'
.......-. ...~""""'"....,_ ......~vt..ll..,. .. '"_,.;;.'_._.•.• ,._...
_ _ ...... w".,..,~ ... ~
, ••. "
•.••••
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34
Ans.
No.
54
Were you aware oftbe folloWing transaeuons and their objective? (See Jist)
ADs: Checkup In the banks,BNRfiles, whenthe payments were made Check up at
the BNR. Ask WeIlars I think it was authonzed, equally at the level of
embassies But It IS possible some come from other rmmstnes
5S
What role dId Siraphin Rwabukumba play
(1) In the purchase of weapons?
(2) In national and international banking transacncns?
Ans: He was a BNR employee.
56
What role did Musabe, Bagosora's brother, play at the Bacar
(1) In the purchase ofweapcns?
Ans.: I do not know but Bagosora wasinvolved
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(2) In national and mtematmnal bankJng transaetJ.ons?
Ans.: He was BaccearManager In Gisenyi. He openedthe bank He requested funds
from the BN, for he sald that the shareholders wanted their money
.ADs' At MU1ade~ be was in cha.tae of supplies In April. he was sent on missien to
(Illegible) weapons He never came back to Rwanda The President wanted to
know why he did not return and wanted to fire him Ask Wellars tfhe went WIth
funds. May be there was wbeelU1g and dealing ip your Jistin Egypt There are
hugeamounts ofmoney Embassies also played a role
57
What do you know about the rumour that General or Colonel Kayumba had
embezzled US$4.000,OOO? How could he have done that?
Ans.. Perbaps. at the level of supphersand In the accounts. He was here forfour or five
months He allegedly left. We can inqutte.
S8.
What do you know about commissions that were collected at the BBL by
Majmbere 811as, who is alleged to be in France and who had one account With
Sagatwa that was allegedly frozen either by the Government ofRwanda or a
Rwandan bank?
Am' Nothang
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59
What do you know about the transferoffunds ofthe Minlster of Defence" Mr
Bizimane AUgu5ttn,(sic) on 14 June 199(illeglble), totalhng USSl,SOO,OOO, on
account No. 034728-35 held by the Embassy ofRwanda in Pans?
Ans: I do not know.
60.
What role did ~Ionel Ntahobari, Military Attache in Pans. play in weapon
transactions?
Regard.ng remrttancesoftile followingUS funds:
(A) Remrttance of a cheque for USSI,200,000 to Groupe Pnv; Capt Barnl
(GPP)? Who JS Capt Bam)?
(B)Remittance ofa cheque for US$200)OOO to the Embassy In Kinshasa?
(C) Remittance ot a cheque tor US$28.000 to the Embassy in WashIngton?
(D) Remittance ofcheque for US$40,OOO to the Embassy In Nairobi?
(E) A cheque for FFI03"OOO to a certain Le Bout? Who 15 Le Beuf?
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(F) The deposit ora cheque for FFl ,1 00.000 from the Embassy in Caaro and
refund by Capt Barril?
(G)Remittance ofa cheque forFFl,086,071 to RobertBernardMartIn? Who is
he?
Ana.
Those tra.nsae1:Ions were neverpresented to the Minister ofFlnance Those people
should explain,
61.
nld you, your Government. yourMinlSU'y, that of Defenceor other nunemes
order or pay, through local compamessucb as hardware shops and 1tJlporters, for
tools such as shovels,pickaxes. eto? lfyes,.then did you establish measures on
the delivery ofthose goods and to whom?
~.' I am not aware ofthose payments, purchases, no, I am not aware No, it had
notlung to do With my functions. The mlDlstries managethetr own budgeis and
the executive directors are in charge The Principal Pnvate Secretary IS not
involved
62
Did you,. yourGovernment, your Mmistry, that of Defence or other ministnes,
contribute, supply, give, subsidrze funds to orgamzations such as the ldR.ND~
CD~ RTLM.
ew"
Ans' No
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63.
BesidesZane, in whichother ccumnes wereRwanda's resources in forelgn
exchange or other forms of currency nusappropnated?
Ans: There 15 the issueoiTes for purchases of weapons and ammunitions in refaoon to
whicb NZLZerora and Bagosora went to SouthAfrica Allthe othercontracts were
treated confidentially by Kabanda and Mtnadef They dld not show them (0 the
Government It was confidential between them I recall that at one meetingtwo
ministers had requested to seethe contracts cooqemJng the supply ofweaponsand
they refused
Documen:m.t10n was done at the level oftbe DNR Governor, who was here for
foUl' or five months
64
Are you aware that BNR employees were arrested and unpnsoned at the Muhima
Prison In Ktgall for embeezlement dunog the 1994 events and the circumstances
surreundmg those aC1S?
Am
No.
65.
Had or have you drawn up a detailed budget, budget esomates for the penod you
were MUllster ofFuW1ce? Where could we obtam such dOCumeotaaOll?
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Ans
The budget is annual and runs from 1 January to 31 December It 15 voted by the
Government.
Ques
y~ but the 6 ApnJ t 994 events have rather upset your budget estimates,the
Government stopped gettlng revenue and you increased your expenditure, as
Mimster of Finance, you must surely adjust and change the budget?
Ans
No, I only took the credits and patd them accordingto the budget We connnued
with the same expenditure without revenue We did not take account ofthe
..
reali~.
66
For the moment, we have used the eXJsttng funds
What amount do you estimate that your Govemment spent dunng the period from
9-04-94 to 28·10-94?
Ans.; This is a question I cannot answer, for expenditures were not under my control,
e g the confidenttal contracts between Mmadefand the Minister OfPlanntDS,
forelgllaccounts 1 cannot estunate that unless we were to return to consult the
documents so as to make the estimates
67
Do you know the magnitude ofthe deficit and the expendituresyou made as the
Government?
Ans.
No.
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68
Ifwe estimate the deficit at RwF 21.382,831,211 what would you say"
Ans: Whether the expenditure reached 21.000 million, It's the reahty, It reached those
proportions, I do not know
69.
By taking intoaccount
Special advances of 1,200,000,000 francs that you mentioned.
2 Traveller's Cheques in US$ for 411.000,000 francsfrom Bagasoraand
company,
3
Disputable cheques for 2.119,561,163 francs,
4
Special advance of500,000,000 francs nom zaire.
This grves us a total of 17,092, 270,048, representingan unexplained
outstand1rt8 amount How do you explam tlus dlSpanty?
Do you know the desbnation of thosefunds or forwhat or for whom they were
used?
Ans: We went to Zaire with 21,000 million and 17,000 million remainedfrozen In
Z&tre banks and the Governmentof zaire refused to reimburse I do not know if
anyone succeeded m havIng the money
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70
We have received infonnation that the GovernmentofZalre has aUeged1y
confiscatedsums ofmoney in Rwanda, do you know the amount? What dtd it do
when the Government of Rwanda. caused the issue ofa new series of notes? Was
the Government of ZaIre or yourGovernment In exile trapped WIth the old senes
of notes and what 'WaS the amount?
71.
Who was in charge ofsupplies on missionto Eqypt?
(a) Did he have moneyor funds?What amount was it?
•
(b) Who had he to meet, do you know hts contacts?
Ans: It was Major Kayumba, in charge ofsupplies I do not know whom or the
suppliers that he mel
72
Talkto me about the one rnilhon dollars transferred to the OMI account on the
file known to the DNR Governor and Ambassador Habunana Cypnen 10 Nauobt
Ans: I do not know the name ofthat account BAOOSORA and BAGARRAZZA
MICHEL bad received lnsttucbons from Kabanda to tJansfer amounts The
Governor made the transfers Governor BAGOSORA and BAGARRAZZa (he is
hvmg here m Nairobi and was the Duector oithe Office de 1a Culture Industriel1e
du Rwanda (OeIR) have and had Slgnmg powers. J have no idea of tho amount
You should see the governor Those were instructJ.ons ISSUed In zaire (twas
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money &om Buropean foreIgn banks and not from Zane. Those were the funds
designedfor the recurrent budget ofthe GovemJl1ent In exile To my knowledge,
there are no other funds
73
Talk to me aboutthe 29 tonnes oftea deposited in Kmshasa. on the file known to
Col. Ruhorahoz.a and the Ambassador in KInshasa
ADs.
That tile was 'treated in Gtsenyt by Mozabc"s employees. Bagosora's brother.
They sent tea to Zaire saying that It paid for the transportatlon of weapons and
t.
ammumtions I do not know the quanttty It passedthrough the Gtsenyi border
74
Talk to me about 'the 1S tonnes ofmilitary equipment that remamed m Mahe on
the file known to Co) Bagosora
Am: It was .K.asake who was 1D the new government fonned in Bukaw This file came
up after we had left
7S.
AccordIng to yo~ are there other thtngs,subjects, pieces of information likely to
enbghten me or help me understand or have a better understanding of the acts
which OCCUlTed and wmchyou think useful for me to know?
- The OGAbills:these are 1993 bills I am not awareof that
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PASSPOR.TS: His and his wife's expIred In I999 They.YIeI'e Issued in 1994. HIS VIsa
was valid until May 1998 His Wife's has expired. The children have thetr own passports
and have studentpasses He himselfregistered foran English courseand had a student
pass.
FinanCJally, he has a small business. He I11ns a taxi, a m~ a mimbus in Narrobi He
stated that be had concluded a comraet WIth a mend He operates and reimburses A
Kenyan lady, Ayonta, IS the front He also has a small car He denies that he bas two
matatus and the one that costbetween KSH 600 and 700
- Egypt supplied weapons to Rwanda Check up In Mtnadefand DNR files The entire
documentation has remained there. Go and see the DIrector ofTreasury. There IS a
possibility ofknowmg morethereof Wel1ars remains at the lMARADAIMAESTATE,
NO 641. He is allegedly in a refugee camp in Kakuma, Kenya, 600 km from Nairobi
He is with Habyanmana's dnver
AKAZU" This was a company that belonged to President Habyarimana's family.
composed ofbis WIfe, basbrothers-in-law It's the nucleus of the President's entourage
It was a nucleus (illegible) for people ofthe COWltry and had a lot ofmoney
BASABOSE He changed foreIgn currencies and worked for Colonel Sagotwa. He 1S an
ex-soldier turned busmessman, He is allegedly in the USSR. He was in Zaire after the
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HABIMANA: He was the Rwandan Consul in Nairobi I did not worle With the
embassies. HABIMANA workeda lot With Minadef on files for the purchase of
weapons. Those were confidential files between them. Emmanuel personally knew
nothmg about 1ha:t, even though Kabanda had refused at a meeting in Mumanba to show
the purchasesofweapons It was not only from me that they were concealed They had
his personalcontacts and I do not know whether he had no confidence in us
EMBASSY OF ZAIRE The weapons did not amve There were problems finding
..
suppliers" venfying the advances made. It was a partIcularIndividual,and not a
company
I did nothmg, Nothing was S&1d to the Board. I was Minister but] saw nothing For half
of the time, there were no relations The people who shot Tutsis were people who were
agamst RPF infiltrators
BAOOSORJ\ according to him, aDegedly gave instrucnons, afterthe plane crash, to the
soldiers oftha Presidential Guard on Bagosora·9 mdl0, to elimmate the opponents until
morning but the soldiers continued because the RPF hadencouraged and enraged the
people With their Interventions
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ALCATBL FRANCE It·s an order requested by Kabandaand placed by BtztmaDa
Asunwl1 for satellite telephones ror thePresident.. Kabanda and another for the anny
StaffHeadquarters
06-08-91 a-nunlin
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1
REPORT OF THE MEETING OF THE FORMER MINISTER OF FINANC~
MR. NDINDABABIZI EMMANUEL, IN NAIROBI FROM 8 TO t 1 JULYJ l t l
AND3 August 1997 CONDUCTED BY GRANDI SUUKRY ANDJACQUE
BAILLARGEON OF THE FINANCE SECTION
The crash occurred on 6 April. The radioadvisedus to stay mdoors. I knew that
neighbours had been killed. I was panic-stricken, I soughtsafety at a friend's home, for I
was in the middle. The followingmorning at 9.10 a.m:,I went to hide in a neighbour's
house, for I hadJustheard that soldiers werekUling neighbours. I remained in biding. At
2 pm people ran and we were told that the RPF soldiershad come out Then I left. I told
my wife and childrento hide. I was in the PSD. I gave her my telephone numberto
contact me. We crawled safe 'and sound. It took me two hours to cover onekilometre, to
get there, for they were ruing. Theyarrestedme at the roadblock and askedme where I
was going. I said where there was security, 1movedon. I went to the home of a friend,
Rafiki Yacinthe, Principal Private Secretary to the Minister of Public Works. There was
fighting between the RPF and the Presidential Guard. Therewas resIstance.
On 8 April 1994, I spent the night in Rafiki·s home. Colonel Bagosora came to his
house. They talked to each other. R.afiki toldme to go to a political meeting and I talked
to him about yourpresence and that you were near the PSD. I asked him whether I could
accompany him and he accepted. We got into my friend's car and we went for another
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fnend, Ndunguste"Fran90lS. At. the meeting. we were led to Mu1adefat the plateau
There were members ofotherpartiesthereand we were told: ·'You have amved but
members ofthe PSD are not here They wantedeach party to .nwntain tfJetrS1ructure 8I1d
groupmg. The decISIon was that of the Party's comnuttee. It was said listeD, you know
the situation There is fighttng all over It is not possible to convene the pohtical bureau
to decide The Chairman ofyour committee is dead The secrewy was assassuwed. The
second Vice- Chatrman IS dead. There remained a.woman whose residence was
unknown to us
Then we asked them what we had to do and consideringthat the three Included two
pohtical bureau members, they agreedand decided to give me that post. That was a
deeaion that we had to explam to our politicalbureau and should 1t accept, then we are
going to change that. We signed a paper and that IS how I becameMuuster of Finance.
1knew that Bagosorawas Prmcipal Private to Mlnadefwho was on mission abroad. I did
not know whetherbe acted on hIS own behalfor on behalfofothers, for when I arrived
the meettnghad ended I was Principal PrivateSecretary I was already'WOrking in thIS
Government We did not even have ume to congratulate Those were surprises We
were compelled to stay at the H8tel des Diplomates I have five children I did not even
know the whereabouts of my wife On 9 Apnl, I borrowed a vehicle and went to see my
wife There was fightmg. I was wamed. I finally found her. At lOam, 1 took the oath of
office.
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I am married with five children boys: 19 and S years, gIrls 18, 14 and 9 yeat'St 10
addition to the African extended fiunily I do not knowwhether1t is still abve The Tutsi
members are all dead there, massacred and I suspect that the Hutu members have been
ehmmated by the RPF. I had my own house It is now occupied by an RPF officer I
bad three other houses In town
ElDmlUl1le1 ended this part
orb. iDterview iD a very emotional mUDer. He
complained that he had DO new. about biJ relatives aDd did 'dot dare inquire for fear
of beida massaued. and diat be bad 110 tOlltacts. He would like ~ enter RWailda
_d to apiaiD to Ka&ame Chat he did DOddnle
1
You wereMinssteroCFinanceftom 9-4-94 to 1..11-941
Ans . Yes,I completed my studies In 1976, at the University ofButare. From 1976 to
1980, I was Director ofFmance with Trufipro. In 1980, 1 worked with the civil service.
From 1981 to 1985, I was DuectorlHeadof the Admmas1rabve and Finance Services at
Electrogaz From 1985 to 1990. at the MmistIy ofPlanning, Head ofbudget preparation
in ctwge ofdevelopment I resigned an 1991 to work for a pnvate audtt firm From July
1992 to (Illegible) ApnJ 1994~ I was Pnncipel Private Secretary to the M.1nister of
Finance I entered as memberofa poUucal party because the MinIstry ofFmances was
etl1rUsted to the PSD.
2
How did you like that heavy task, that was quite an experience?
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3
Who appointed youMinister ofFinance, who decreed, the new Government?
Ans : See above
3.a
What was Colonel Bagosora's atbtude towards you, the finance world and the
banking circles?
Ans. Colonel Bagosora helped the banks to move without any other form of pressure.
He ensured the secunty ofthe transfer. He wentto the Banque Nationale
{National Bank]and provided protection for transfers from KIgali toGitarama.
3b
Was he an overbeanng and vmdicnve person? Was he a dictator? Describe to me
how you viewed him?
ADs.: He was not overbearing He had no authority over the banks, that is, ifhe had
exerted internal pressure. I do not know. I saw him at Rafiki's home for the first
tune We did not speak to each other. Even at the plateau, I did not speak to him
I did Dot see Jurn leading I know that before the Government was put in place. he
was member oftbe cnsis comnnttee, which helped and was at the origm ofthe
formationofthe Government
Bagosora was a soldier that no person challenged He travelled to orgamze, He
moved about freely Whereversomething was needed, Bagosora was able 10
help.
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4.
Who took the decision to transferthe Government to Gitarama on 12 Apn11994?
Ans: No meetlng was held to 1ake the decision Personally, I was there. On my return,
I discovered that everybody was mOVIng. I followed SUit No person took the
decisien' I askedand was told that 1t was Colonel (illegrble] Ndindariyrmana,
currently U1 Belgium, who had said 1hat it was necessary to have secunty because
be had partiCipated m the movement He had personally accompamedthe
Government
5
What do you do as Ministerof Finance?
Ans. The Governmenthad requestedme to ensurethe secunty otState funds. I wrotea
letter to the BNR Governor to secure State funds The Government decided to
move the fundsand put them in the BNRstrongroom. Atthat tune,as Mtttaste! of
FlJW1ce~ 1had the duties I perfonned whenI was appointed Pnncipal Private
Secretary to the MtmsterofFinance Afterwards. I dad not have the key to
Mlnister"s office I had started10 work in Gttaramawhen the Governmentasked
me to allot necessaryresources fur the task otrequestlng the re,gton's banks to
begin then actiVItIes where there was no fighting We started WIth banks nearby
and very rapldlywe went to Butare 'Mth the DirectorofBudget and two soldiers
for my protectJon. We requestedthe Prefectureaccountant to transfer their funds
to the Gttarama. accounts
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The two accountants wentto the Gitarama accounts
s
r.0268072
6
under the direct SupervISion ofthe Duector ofBudget m Gitaraina Regarding the
actrvities,the essential wasto orpnize the payment of civil servants, for they
were paid through thesrrespective accounts.and to keep the Credl'ts ofthe various
ministriesthrough the Itstpreparedby the cwil servants Sincethe Stateacccunts
were always In the red, each ttme that the Mtmster ofFlnance requested funds
fromthe Banque Nauonale, it was an overdraft I bad wntten a letterto the BNR
Manager to advance RwF I, 200 milhon to the Government for recurrent
expenditure, fuel, salaries and sundnes.
The Director ofTreasuty had to draw funds until that moment We stayed there
..
until Jone when we were dislodged&om Gitarama by the RPF to Gisenyi
Regarding meetings, we wentto Moramba, located at more than one hour by ear,
as the Ministerst111 stayed there. The funds were transferred 10 the strongrooms
ofthe BCR and BK, to their branches In Gtarama BNR money was deposned In
the strongroomsofthoBCR and BK In Grt.arama. In June, we left for Gtsenyi and
the BCR and BK banks went and set up office in Gtsenyl an the commercial
departments oftheIf branchesand continuedtheu actrvmes.
S.a.
Have you noted a contmwty ofthe previous Government's pohcy by your new
Government!!
Aas.
The Ministry ofFlD8nce has had continwty as before as.faras opemtions are
concerned There wascontinuityin expenditures but 'WaS nen-existent in revenue
The previous operation has been adhered to. The banks have remained
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independent At. the BNa. Stateemployees have stayed oD.the directors, indeed,
everybody has continued The same applIed 10 other mmratnes through credit
managers who acted as intennedianes between their nunistnes and ours It was
the same management procedure. Everybody kept their posnion,
At the hIgh levelofmanagement and the banks, there was no Joss of life, excepta
Tutsi Boardmemberwho waskilled. Reganbng the other mnnstnes, I saw
nothing unusual in their funet1()ning. knowing'that in the mimstnes mentioned, no
person was able to enter then offices m Kigah There was no person. not many
people. who fled for fear They had to be called from then homes on the radio to
~
resumetheirduties in Gitarama. There was anotherproblem. There was no
office Fmancrally, It was mainly the cashIers who had to pay salaries and make
purchases. The others werenot usable such as customs dues,and taxes. The
Budget and Treasury Departments had work At the level ofthe courts, the RPF
had released everyone and we tned to move those tiles to a safe place. The press
release was read on the rsdro on 9 Apnl The RPF had Increased the bombings
and KJgali had been closed on 7 April
5 b.
Accordtng to you. were plans to purchase weapons and tools as 'Well as the
plannmg ofthe genocide already in progress under the previous Government?
Ans
I do not know. We asked the question r. personally, insISted on the names of
certaln hardliners. The fellow in charge of intelligence who was the President's
brother-in-law IS now the Mmister ofAgncuJture and LIvestock in the present
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Government, m Klgali He lived in the President's house dunng the war of exile,
which means. was he awareof'tJus plan, would he have done something to foil It?
Then why is he in the RPF Government, when he nuled to preventthe genocide?
Why did those personsdo nottllng to savethe people?
I know nothing about the plan. I bad heardrumours in Kigali. People said that
following the Slglllog oftileArusha Aecords~ the soldiers would no longerhaveto
fight, if they knew that behind them in KIgali the RPP had infiltrated? But to say
that there was a plan?
Due to the atmosphere in KIgali, certainpersons.. feared for their lrves They felt
Insecure The adviser to theMuuster ofFinance, Mbaguta JeanMarie, 00
teehmcal matters and admimstratron, attendedthe Katuu meeting. MUch had to
put the Parliament in place That was the last meebng held When he returned to
the office,he told me that he was discouraged, that the Assembly could not be put
in place It was all over The President was gOIng to loll the Tutsis then He was
killed There were also Tutsisand Hutus in the opposmon who feared the :M:NR
The Secretary of our PS party suspected the:MRND in power I neversawsucha
Jist
The PSD was in the Opposltton; rt was an oppositionparty. At eertam moments,
'there were problems within out partyand other partaes Certainmembers were
accused ofbemg too RPF while others wereaccused of a rapprochement Wlththe
MNRD. Two parties recruitedfor the PSDand the MRND Previously, we had a
party very united againstthe MNRD, whsch wanted to accedeto power through
the baUot box Our party was affected by the problem of drvtsion Its commrttee
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was decunated and, as a result oftha~ our Cfwnrian \VaS the fust to be killed,and
then the Second VIce-Chairman When the government was put in place,the
PrimeMInister stated the obieenves of the new Government, which were clear
and reasonableconsidenng the situation.talked aboutthe contact Wlth the RPF
designed to stop the war His Government was put in place for only SIX months
It had noble objcctrves We wanted to end the warand resume negotiations
There was thereforeno reasonto thmk that the plan was not going to succeed.
But as filr as our PSD team was concerned,the obJective was to followour party
line, against violence that was advocated In our behaviour That was the party
"
hne. not to support violence but ratherto stop Jt and encourage negotiations
First, the Government sent a missaon to contact the RPF In order to negotiate a
ceaso-fire and implementtheArusha Accords Failures TheRPF refused It It
wanted the Government to first resign for 11 to negotiate wrth the Rwandan armed
forces. Ata certam moment,the Government had accepted that the army should
negotiate, But then the RPF demandedthat the army must not be mandatedby the
Government We bad thoughtthat there wasno reason fornot acceptmgthe posts
proposed to us and that we had DO choice We were presented Wlth a But
accomplt. Notluns showed thatleavingthis Government would help advance
anythmg whatsoever. We are not m a coallnon, Rather, our party led. the
ministers We maintam our line and our acquisitions
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6
What powers. do you have overthe Banque NallOnille du Rwanda (BNR)
[NationalBank ofRwandaJ and the other banks?
Ans
The BNR IS administered by a Board ofGovemolS. The Board Chainnan is the
Government that leads but operates under the supervision ofthe MmlSter of
Flnance The Mmrster is represented on the Board ofGovetnors. The MinISter of
Finance proposes the appomtment of'tbe Governorto the Government. But It JS
the Presidentofthe Repubflcwho appoin1s him, The other ban.ks a.re managed by
their Boards ofGovernors The Govemment~s representanve
IS appointed by the
..
MinISter of Finance. Ifthere are decisions to be taken, then the representatrve is
thereto ensure compltance with the laws and decisl0ns.
7
The banks closed down on 6-04-94 Who took the initlauve to have them open?
Ans
The banks did not close down Everyonereceived the press statementthtough the
radro to stay at home. Orders were ISSUed for aetrYrt1es to resume All sectors
acted The Ministry ofFinance and businesses In the area under Government
control resumed thelf activities
8
Did you tell Me Morrissette that you had encountered problems? Wluch?
Ana.: PartJcularly, at the level of foreign exchange as far as thefunds are concerned
We bad asked the banks for their foreignexchange. That was why we used this
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mission For 1ransactlons abroad, we had to make transfers to the BNRso that
TCs could be used The Oitarama CommercialBank ytelded to the BNIl for the
TCs to be used m the operation With embargo problems, no person accepted our
orders We had to pay cash That led us to use TCs,which werealso hit by the
embargo
ImmedIately afterthe Governmenthad been put 10 place" there was a problem of
ammunitions, We werefirst negotiatlIlg peace TheMinsterofFinance had
therefore blocked all Mmadef orders for the anny He refused because he bad
thought that peace was about to be achteved Op 6 Apn11994" the soIdlers were
furious We were accused ofbemg RPF Had the MmlSteT been there, he would
have got himself shot This caused panic In the anny, for there IS notJungdifficult
In placing orders, but without weapons we could not IMpose peace.
9
What methods did you useto abram funds that the government needed?
10.
Concerning the secunty oerunds, who took the deersion to move and transfer
them from Kigah to Ot1arama?
ADs. . The Govemment and the banks, NzezaberaEphtem and Massonga Denis,
certlfymg officers of the BCR.
11
Who took the decision to transfer the bank's admiJUstratlon from K.1gali to
Gitarama?
11
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12
Who takes the decision to transfer BNR s1a1Ffrom onedepartment 10 another
Within or to another banking institutton or the government?
Ans.
Tbe Board ofGovernors ofthe bank
)3
'Who appoints and dismisses the Governor ofthe bank?
ADs
The President oftile Repubhc through the Mimster ofFmance.
6<
14
Who issued orders to the Governor ofthe Banque Natio1laJe du Rwanda'.>
Ans.
It's me. I wnte to him to put togethet all availablefunds and to request funds
from the other banks, and to ensure the secunty of'S1ate funds
1S
What amount was secured in Rwandan francs. US dollars and other currencies
and m Traveller's Cheques? Can we say RwF 22,000 million?
Ans.
RwF 21,000 million carne from Kigali to Gttatama. They left 11,000 mtlliOl1ln
the coffersof the DNR. Small notes of 100 fmncs and (JOins were left there Thrs
was done after such transfers. It was done afterand not at the same trme as on 12
ApnL I don't have the date, but It was around the 12tb The BNR. people know
the date. From Kigali we looked for the person responSible for the workers WIth
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the keys Those were the same people who transferred moneyand who have
continued to beresponsibleforthe funds Nothingbas changed It~s the Treasury
Department officml and hlS collaborators He followed to GtsenYl and Goma. It
was the same persons who had the documents They included BaganlZl WellaTS,
KalSSl and GovernorDenisNttrugihumbazi, Rwabutogo, Ktmanuka, Habamenslu
lnnocent, he IS very Important. He 1S second to the Governor. He replaced me It
was he who issued orders when the Governorwas absent
16.
How much, what amount did the other banks give
.. or supply to the Banque
Nanonale du Rwanda ortbe government?
Ans.
Follewmg the problemsoffimds ror foreign supplies, I do not know neither what
the banks gave nor the amount. nor the reporton the missionto Europe. But the
objective was to transfer funds from their correspondent banks In the BNR
correspondent banks account to Paris In that nussion there was Massonga Denis
(allegedto be in pnson in KigalI), lnqutre the accountfrom him I do not know.
The Governor wanted to go to the USA. but he hadno visa The first mission was
to Germany
17
Duringthe missionorganized to BU1are m the week from 12 to 16, with the
DirectorofBudget, Mr NkihyeheMelane, m order to urge the Prefecture to pay
lts assets into the Gataramaaecounts, or 80 amoWlt.ofS35 million, in RwF or
other currencies, did the Prefecture pay in those funds?
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ADs
YES. I cannot say exactly howthey were used Consult the accountant of
Gdarama
(a) Were you financedfromthose same funds? How werethe funds used?
Ans: I requested the BK Manager to tJansfer his money and he refused He did not
wanted to move because he had no powers and Belgium did not want
18
(8) Are thereother Prefectures wluchreceived the same invItation? Old they
supply funds and what amount was It?
Ans· There are none. I requested that Ruhango must do It, for he was going to fuU In
the hands oftbe RPF. But I do not thmk that money came from there.
(b) When were those requests made? If through an official request, then whose
funds were they?
The Cashier ofthe Banque d 'Epargne du Rwanda [SavmgsBank ofRwanda] had
requested to secure the funds He hid himself in his home He came and asked us
whether there was a means to save the money We told hun to ask the RPF The
RPF Government had arranged for the coffers to be opened. and the new
Governorhad already been appointed The coffers had RwF 500 million
19
Who was the Governor of the Banque Nationale du Rwanda~
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Ans: Ntirugihumbazi DenIS
20
What was the amount of the special advance requestedand obtamed from the
govemment for RwF 1.200 nnlhon or RwF 800 million at the Banque Nanonale
till Rwanda meantforsalanesand to whomwas Jt paId? SaJancs and FAR, please
give details
ADs
1 2 nnlhon for salanes, recurrent expenditure We apply for an over~ an
..
advance The Director of Treasury uses aUappltcations forpayrnent addressed to
the Mimster of Finance. The TreasuryDepartmentgives ordersfor the payment
of bills or applicanons for funds in the country or abroad So. we cannot say_ It is
necessary to go and examme the DNRfiles. forthe DNR obeys orders, wJuch
come from the :Minister ofFInance The 500 milbon&om the Caisse d 'Epargne
[Savtngs Bank}, represented an advance &om the DNR to the Government
desrgnedto payoff' deposstors, savers It·s a budget re-allocation
(a) By mid-May, an ADB meetmg held in Najrobi. What was the purpose oftbat
meeting?
AIls - Rwanda is a memberofthe African DevelopmentBank (ADD). which has Its seat
in Abidjan.
cate d'lvOlte. I attended the General Assembly, the meenng of
MiniSters ofFmance. No Rwandan funds have been deposited in. the ADB
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(b) Do you have different budgets to tun? Say. <>ffieaaJ or non-official?
Ans : There as no non-offieJ8.1 budget I do not know of any We havean OrdtDiUY
budget and a development budget managed by tho Minister ofPlannmg
(c) The recurrent budget anaged by MIN~EFJ Augusbn Bizunana and the other
by the Minister ofPlannUl& August Nirabatware, the development budget, do you
the right to look Intotheir management?
Ans.
All the ministers went through the Minister ofFJoance. He had a budget for each
ministry but payment was done by the Mimstry of FInance. There were no
parallel budgets, but I cannot aRion that I have checked all the expenditure The
Mimstty of Planning had the power to administer. It's the budget That is what I
heard the State cashjer arrived in GisenYJ say The MlnJster o/Plannlng drew
several cheques 00 that account I asked him the amount He told me that he did
not know but that the documents were In Goma at th1S mother's house He bad
the powers to Sign and be was the one who SIgned
It 1S a budget based on drafts and financed by foreign aid Each drafl had to pass
through the MInister of'Plannmg, be it Import/export or locals I saw Wellars
very often. He left his bnefcase at his mother's bouse. She entered Rwanda.and
is pnson 10 Gtsenyt
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Ques You, as Mlnaster ofF1n&nCe, were you aware? He told me nothing I knew that
he bad signed the cheques only whenI got here in N81robi The MiniSter of
Plannmg was Ngtrabatware Augusnn..
(d) How did the cash flow in? Under which headin8?
Ana
See the MInistry ofPlanning or the BNR, for It was they who made the entries
(e) Are you awareolUte issue ofseveJa1 chequesand
the reasone, and why they
..
were ISSUed?
Ans. No
21
Old you touch the gold or other reserves ofthe bank. where have they been
deposited?
Ans.
Ask WeJtars who was at the BNR when the funds were ttansferredand who told
me that there was no gold there, except for a smAJJ quantity seized, which has
remamed there I cannot say anytluD8 about the reserves See the BNR
Governor
22
Was much earned from fuel sold?
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Ans. No, we got supplies oCmel The State used it and (dlegJbJe) not paid.
(23
What do really know about the adventure with Thomas Cook Traveller's Cheques
and VISaS?
Ans
An embargo was unposed on those cheques and we bad problems with them
24.
Vtsas and Thomas Cook had nonfied the DNR to destroy the Traveller's Cheques
that Colonel Bagosom had in his possession, whp ordered the BNR not to destroy
them and why?
Ans.
No one gaveme the order not to desU'oy them I am not awareofsuch an order
Flod out from the BCR and BIt We, we learnt that there was objection to the
payment ofthe cheques When in May, after Bagosora had used them, had we
known, we would even have tried to use them We knew that the Traveller's
Cheques could be used We requested cheques and gave them to people m need
elsewhere and they 80t blocked
25
Who decided to take the Saidcheques to purchase weapons and ammunitions?
Ana: When the embargo was imposed, the Government decided to constantly get
supplies without placingorders, for such orderswould not have gone through
because ofthe embargoas there was no foreign exchange The Government then
WS0342S
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~'
~" ...•
..•..•.•..•."......••.. :.:.:'.::.'
•........•......•..
..
I
I
K0268085
19
decided that holders offoreign currencyaccounts should be used and that the
depositors should be reimbursed In RwF Thus, .it was necessary to look for
foreign exchange That is how BNR and BeR S8ld that they were depositing TCs.
The Governmenttherefore decided that those cheques should be advanced to the
BNR to be used for supplies It was the President ofthe Republic and Bagosora
who decided 10 send people on nussaon
Ques. Was it Bagosora, the Government?
ADs
No, it wasthe Counctl ofMimsters. We do not know how thedrawing wasdone"
for 1t was Nzizcrera Joseph, Bagoscra and Minadef,for they bad received the
mission to go abroad. for they could obtain weapons and left for Gama.. for the
supplier came from there. They 'Went to Goma I do not know the supplier
Subsequently, we learnt that they went 10 Ksnshasa After Kinshasa, I saw
Bagosora in Goma when we had fled He was in the Goma refugee camps While
In Glsenyi, the President called meto find out whether It had worked Every body
wondered why those people did not come We Jearntthat the TCs had been
blocked I handed the Sic to the Governor. Ifthey had sent someone, then It was
at the level ofMinadertbat such a person would be received. There were two-
phasemissions as well as fadure
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26.
Who handed the cheques to Mr Bagosora? Were there prooA oftransaebons,
which corresponded to the Traveller·s Cheques issued? Where could such ISSues
of Tes be found?
Ans
The cheques were taken from the BCR. They were ceded to the DNR bytlte BCR
and given to Bagosora. The cheques were registered 10 BCR and BNR accounts.
They used the helicopter to go to Gitatama . There are peoplewho had gone at the
beginmng, the outset ofthe war in the village Bagosora went to look for him in
the helicopter so that he could come to work I do not know whether he forced
"
him to (Illegible) or whetherhe refused or was taken by force.. In any case, no
person came to complain that he had been threatened Bagosora was the key
figure He was noticeable and noticed. Regardtng the cheques, I was worried
when they came for the second instalment. They left WIth TCs and had notJung. It
was not DOnna! I saw Kabanda. who told me In hIS room in Gitarama' "Luten,
It'S they. I have all confidence and I authonze the second mstalment
someone from the Prestdential Guard, for it
Try to find
erected the roadblocks It's the
Presidential Guard that was at the root and gave the erders Were they
uncontrollable? They werechosen by people ofthe house Here, the drivercame
from the family He JS Habyanmana's driver here In Nairobi. His name is Louts,
but Ius fiundyname" He IS mamed to the Presldent"s sister He stays at IMARA
DAIMAESTATE, the 787, to be verified.
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27.
Do you know the person With whom Bagosoradidbusmess in tnmsaetions With
Botela Bompesse?
Ans: No Bagosota left saYJog that he had a supplier and I dld not know him.
28.
What do you know about fake receipts for the purchase ofmedictne" and the
secret contracts for the purchase of weapons?
Ant.
Nothing. I am not aware
29
What role did AlfredKalissa play in South Africaand in the purchase of weapons
..
In the Seychelles? The one tram Bagosora.? Who gave him the Traveller's
Cbeques (USS 402~850)?
Ans.: ] beard of the mission by Nztzorera and Bagosora to the Seychelles [ only heard
that they met there and were not telling the whole troth
Second interview Bagoso~ Nzizorera and BizimanaofMinadeftravened tosether to
South Afiica to buy weapons They did not acquire weapons and no report was
produced Even the President was worried. They went to Goma, Kinshasa and the
Seychelles.
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30.
How do you explain'thatthe same senes ofTmveUer'sCheques was used to buy
air-tsakets, amounting to US$14,OOO, bought by the Rwandan Ambassador to
ZaIre, furthe PresidentofRwanda and hIS entourage? It IS obvious that
somewhere someonecoordmated the issueof Traveller's Cheques?
Ans : I do not knowanything He had an amountfor South AfhcacancceUed. A plane
had been hired in Goma I am not aware o(that purchase order.
31.
Was it the decisionofthe MinISter of Defence, Btzimana Augustin, YOUISClt:
60
Bagosoraor Joseph Nzirorera? What was hIS title orNzttOrerats role~ Is there
another person in this matter unknown to us?
Ans.
It was the decision otPnme Minister Kabanda He had confidence In them.
32
Was the use ofTraveller's Cheques voted or offiCially decreed by the
Government? Was the remrttanceor ISSUe of those funds done at the level of
Baear or that ofthe Banque de Commerce {Commercial Bank] Where could we
locate the documents ofthe said tranSadlon(s)? In Gitarama? Is the Oitarama
branch ofthe Banque de Commerce snll open currently?
Ans.
It was all the foreign exchanse. It was the Government 1hattook the decision
The budgetwas not even talked about Allthe fOreJ8D exchange was blocked and
used for the 'WaI'. There was no question ofa budget.
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33.
Who IS Guiseppe Avzaradel,a Zairean,and what rote did be play in the
transactions surroundmg the Traveller's Cheques and the purchase ofweapons?
34.
How was his expenditure accounted for?
35
Who was the Managing Director ofthe Banque de Commerce and who was. in
GisenYl and who, according to Information received, lost interest In the plight of
the company? At the level ofthe bank, who was.. the manager, who was the
leader?
Ans. Mvuyekure, be is deceased It was saIdthat he suffered from AIDS He died In
Iuly In Goma, but he was there He had DIrectors who did the work Buttbat did
not prevent hun from being in control He continued to work It 'WaS Ephrem and
Masongaand the Chairman of the Boardof Governors, Sebaharahakwa.. who
proposed that the Managershould be fired becauseof his weakness and illness
The request was made omlly They were in Gisenyj at the end ofJune. I dJd not
.havethe opportunity to change the people at tbe level Qf'the'SItuatlon I do not
know whether the decisions taken, were 'takenwithout hun knowing. But r saw
him in Gttanuna and Gssenyi I believe he was wnh BagosoIa. If I rell1ember
well, they were together when theycame to collect the Tes. I sawhimseveral
times, but he was suffering a lot He refused to quit his post
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36.
Explam to me the role ofGeneral Baramoto, Head cf'the Zalrean civil guard, In
the transacnons.(118$40.000, Eno Broens de Centrafiu,. pharmaceutical products,
US$IO,OOO. and USS120,OOO to Motayo?
37
If I am not wrong,the Government made transfers. on 2 or 3 June 1994, from
Gitarama to Mayamba (Gisenyi Preecture) Who took the decISion?
Ans: We entered the room at 9 o'clock, A message was sent on a piece of paper to
Kabanda who read it and then sard: gentlemen,those who are afrald can already
leave, for the RPF IS m Myakaramosie., He moved forward and got closer. Tbere
was pamc We stood up. Bveryone was running You needed 10 see how 'they
fled. It was total chaos We went towards Gisenyi,panicking, I passed through
Kibuye, The population fled
38
Who ensured the actual transfer offunds from the Basque Nadonale du Rwanda
to the Banque de Commerce du Rwanda, in Gisenyt?
Ans,
Habameshi Innocent Controller General,and deputy to theGovernor, did the
coordination SoLdiers 8U8J'ded the money The State cashier told me that
Bagosora had helped him to bring out the mooeyfrom thebank
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39.
Where could we find documentson those transfem? Is that bank snll operating?
Ans.
Wellers, It IS still him and his agents whohave the documents
40.
What do you knowabout Kabdigi's contractWIth the ChmesesupplIer? WIth
whrch company did he do busmess?
Arts: I did not see the contract,not even at the Cabmetmeeting It was not mentioned
He was General
41
When were funds transferred from GlsenYI to Goma? Do you have the name and
address of the Banques Commerciales Za,roises [Zal1ean Commercial Banks] in
front of the Hdtel MASK'
ADs.: I know that m Goma,there are two buildings next to the HotelMASK. The BNR
deposited in one and the BeR deposited JO theother Regarding the BNR, It was
Wellars and three other persons They were with their chiefand they had their
file Regarding BC&'Ephrem was in chargeof'that I do not know the amount
(a) Was the money from the nanf{lle Commerctale, 1raItsferred in a PaJerojeep,
deposited in the Union Zo11*OISe des Banques? Do wehavedocumentation to that
WS03-42S
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25
I
.. :.
' •.
l
,..L
-s ,
';""1'
•
Avons entendu ce jour 30-11-1996 de 16h20innS aJ9h19mns Mr Emmanuel
Ndindabahizi ancienMinistre des Finances' du.·go~emement interimaire du Rwanda
qui a repondu comme suit a. nos differentes interpeUations:
K0 1
"J'aimerai tout d'abord insister sur Ie probleme de sc'curite quise pose awe candidats
au rapatriemearPour rna partje vis icfal'etranger depuisplus d'un an, et en
situation irreguliere puisque mon passeport est perime quant bien merne mon.visa
n'arrivera a expiraticn.qu'au mois de Mai 1997. C'est'dire combienje souhaite tout
comme un grand nombre de cornpatriotes, retourner dans mon pays si j'etais assure
d'y trouver un minimum de securite, Je sais qu'entre les declarations officielles des
dirigeants actuels et leurs actes de tous les jours, il y' a une grande difference. Souvent
cette difference n' existe rneme plus, q.qand par exemple Ie Conseil des Ministres
d'hier 29-11-1996 a decide de Ia saisieet de la vente sans autre forme de proces des
biens immeubles de toutes les personnes supposeesavoir trempe dans le genocide.
Concernant rna carriere proprement dite, je porte avotre connaissanceque, avant la
guerre, j'ai vecu sans discontinuer aKigali depuis 1976, date de l'obtention de mon
diplome universitaire. Par la suitej'ai occupe les pastes suivants:
- directeur financier de la cooperative de commerce Trafipro de 1977 a 1981
- chef du service administratif et financier de la societe Electrogaz de 1981 a
1985
- chef de la division du financement interne au Ministere du Plan de 1985 a
..
1991
- auditeur dans un cabinet prive d'Audit de 1991 a juillet 1992
- directeur de Cabinet du Ministre des Finances de Juillet 1992 aAvril 1994.
II est anoter que rna nomination ace poste decoule de mon appartenance au Parti
PSD. En effet lorsque en 1991 fa creation des Partis politiques fut rendue possible. 5
grands Parris virent le jour et se repartirent les portefeuilles ministeriels au prorata
accorde achacune des formations politiques. C' est ainsi que le PSD beneficia de 3
portefeuilles dont celui des Finances qui fut confie aMr Marc Rugenera( ce demier
detient actuellement encore le merne poste). A I'instar des autres Ministres, Mr
Rugenera a compose son Cabinet en faisant appel essentiel1ement a des militants de
notre Parti. Et c'esr tout naturelLement que son choix s'est porte sur rna personne pour "
clingerce service.
.
]'ai assume ces fonctions jusqu'awe evenements de 1994.
Lorsque ces evenements ont eclate je me suis successivement cach~ ~pez un voisin de
-r:~uartier puis, pour des raisons de securite chez Mr Rafiki Yacinthe alj)rs direc~
··Cabinet du Ministre des Tp-va2.Publics. dent Ie domicile etait garde par des
"'<.~ •
dt ·'e'WC. J'y ai passe tn'1ii~~au 8 ·Avril1994..
~~f
II est vrai que sur le chemin qui m'a conduit chez Mr Rafikij'ai traverse eMs barrages;
'..1
..
,.
...1,7• .J.
., A
. ven
"fire' ma carte
9\4, &'s:::s:.
ew: :",...es:t..ou
contlgieS
s,stemab'lueS
Q lQ==te.
yant
d'identite les responsables dejfX>ints de contrele OC=4S' ent pas fait de Qiiiietlites
padiellH~. ea .irs m'ont ~ell~I •• garde quelques temps parce qu'ils ne
comprenaient pas que des cadres comme moi nous cachions et les laissaient ewe se
debrouiller tous seuls. Ayant tres peur a l'epoque, je n'ai pas cherche adevisagerles,
interesses, Aussi pendant le temps passe pres d~ barragesje n' ai assiste a aucun acte
de violences.sur des personnes;qu' its soient tutsi au non.
Ie
C'est done le 8 Avril que Ie Colonel Bagosera est venu au do 'ci eq
cherche ~ ~IHP~~~~~~_~~~~~_~
~
!
~I
a4 9 3 5
•
4~
.
.
... '
'
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K0184936
;
'.
:
' _ Nous avons pns au Pas.sage \!Dilw!re ~.1r.e?e ~o~~ ~ nom de
Ndungutse Francois, Arrives sur les Heme !(t':~I~? mAteS) noosaYons
constate que la reunion avait pris fin et que"seulnotre Parti~,le PSD y avait ete absent
Mais Mr Mugenzi nous a aussitot fait I'econcmie 'des debats,et demande que nous
designions seance tenante nos representants awe postes revenant anotre Parti au sein
du nouveau gouvemement. Nous etions embarrasses puisq!ieime telle designation
directe etait contraire anx principes de notre Patti qui exig~ent une reunion
prealable du Bureau Politique. Mais Mr Mugenzi nous a presses en disant qu'une telle
eventualite ne pouvait etre envisageeen raison des troubles dans Ie pays et du fait que
tous les autres membres du Bureau etaient soient morts soient introuvables. Devant
l'urgence, c'est le Bureau restreint compose des 2 membres presents: Rifiki et
Ndungetse, qui a statue et pris la decision que Rifiki prendrait le portefeuille des
Travaux Publiques nmoi celui des Finances.el- ~Muttv~~ .:s-tt<...rdY'- c::u..J 11} }...)A-~t
A cette reunion du 18 Avril 1994 les personnalites suivantes etaient presentee:
(NfRND)
- Kararnera Edouard
- Ngirumpatse Mathieu
(44)
-·Nzirorera Joseph
( " )
- Mugenzi Justin
( PL ) Ces 2 du PL etaient deja dans I'an- Ntama~!o. Agnes
( PL.) c\eo~g~u.vernemeot.
t...
~
-Ruhumuriza.Gaspard
i\.LA...
(PDC~'9{t~d~t~~~-\V~-··- \'Ci
- Mueego Donat
( rvIDR)
_Karamera Froduard
(ce )
.
Ce jour je n'ai rernarque ni la presence de Kambandaqui semble...t-il se cachait a la
gendarmerie, ni celle du President Sindikubwabo pour lequelles recherches etaient
en cours.
A mon avis leur nomination s'explique de la maniere suivante:
- Kambanda avait auparavant ete pressenti ace poste en application des Accords
d' Arusha, au titre du ~R
- Sindikubwabo a non seulement ete le choixdu rv1RND mais aussi de la
Constitution.
Apres Ia mise en place du nouveau gouvernernent le 8 Avril, une prestation de
sennent a ete organisee Ie lendemain. Cest a cette occasion que pour Ia premiere fois
j' ai rencontre Kambanda. Celui-ci, ainsi que Ie Presi_<:effectivement assiste a cette ceremonie. 0 ; ~, ~\R ~ ~ ~
':~·Un conseil des Ministres s'est immediatement tenu apres. Je ne me rappelle pas
, exactement des decisions prises mais il s'agissait surtout de ramener la paix et Ia
tranquillite dans Ie pays.
Le nouveau gouvernement est reste aKigali jusqu'au 12 Avril.
Son travail a consiste surtout arechercher les voies de dialogue avec le FPR pour
arreter la guerreet les m.assacres. Mais Ie FPR refusait de dill108t\eT au pretexte !lue
notre gouvemement etait une equipe de criminels. <..~ ~'
Les negociations avec le FPR avaient ete amorcees par Ie ler Ministre Kambanda,
remplace ensuite par Gatsinzi ala demandedu FPR qui exigeait un interlocuteur
militaire,
,:~.~-.:" . ,~,~t'1\€~~
. -lt~.u.
Le contact avec les F~se faisait naturellement par r entremise. du ~e de la
~. I ~o~
Defense.~..., Sls> 'r.f'( ~.>:.~~~ ~ 'f ~A~ ~~ ~ ~T· tJUJ
Je ne sais pas si des questions militaires oat ete soulevees lo!"$.:~ reunions du
f~~f:~}·.
I Conseil des Ministres, mais je me souviens que Ie Ministre ~Iadefe~ a evoque un l ..
'moment donne, que l'armee etait a cows de munitions. C~foumtsseurs~ ~
'-r-
~~-
---------
1 ~Aj~~_ ... _
~ . ,;
/ , Afriqu,e
d~
K0184937
.Sudrefusait de
n?~ li~~ ~~'~~~~cide
en
d' e,nvoyer Ie Responsable
~ ~es approvisionaements en nuSS10n. L'Interesse. ap~s:~.on depart n' est plusjamais
revenue Je erois me souvenir qu~ son unique d~a~on etait 1 Egypte.
Je ne pease pas que le Conseil des Mi~stres:'s'e'soit~ saisi de la question de la Garde
. Presidentielle (GP) puisqu'il s'agissair'd'uae formatiouspeciale qui, a mon sens ne
devait repondre que devant Ie President de Ia Republique. Apres la disparition de son
initiateur, je ne saurai vous dire si la OP avait continue de relever de I'autorite du
nouveau President Sindikubwabol.Mais il a et6 question a la demande du FPR, de la
creation d'une force de 1000 elements composes du FPR, des FAR, et de la Minuar
.
. pour combattre les GP. II semble que la Mimiarse solt opposee acette idee elant.
0·
donne que son mandat ne I'y autorisait pas. :r<)..~: ~ ~ "-~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~
Par ailleurs du 9 au 12Avril je n' ai jamais vu de commandants de la GP et pas pius
. 0
-t
de militaires assister awe reunions du CODseil des ..
./- G- ~
~
J'explique les massacres at e art des artaques du FPR et son refus de vouloir
.'\01~
engager Ie dialogue avec Ie nouveau gouvernement pour arreter la guerre. Je pense
que si cette concertation avait ete possible, Ie gouvemementaurait rassemble Ie
personnel de securite adequat et lutte efficacement centre lesmassacres. .
;;-.. ae revient en memoire une reunion du gouvemement avec l'ensemble des Prefets,
7
-"
r\,-..'L
rr
entre le 10 et le 11 Avril. Tous les Prefers etaient presents saufcelui de Butare, peuterre parcequ'il etait tutsi. L'ordre dujour portait sur les echanges d'informations et
les mesures prendre. Je ne pourrai vous en dire davantage.
Le gouvemementa effectivrement donne des directives pour arreter les massacres
mais je ne saurai vous en eiter. Seulemenr, je me souviens que des messages ecrits ont
ete elabores dont je ne possede malheureusement aucune co pie ou texte integral.
Le gouvernement a aussi entrepris des campagnes <1' explication et de sensibilisation
dans les zones non occupees par le FPR Ainsij' ai conduit une premiere delegation
Gikongoro, et participe une autre conduite par le PresidentSindikubwabo Kibuye.
C' etait entre les mois d' A vril et de Juin. Je sais egalement que Ie President s' est
rendu Butare, Il ne me vient pas en memoire les themes.developpes dans ces 2
localizes ( Kibuye et Butare) maisje sais que les massacres y avaient deja commence.
Du 12 Avril au 2 Juin le gouvemement s'est deplace Gitarama. Pendant cette
periode j'ai effectue une mission de la BAD ici Nairobi dans la lere quinzaine de
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
Mai.
4ues taches assumees par Ie Ministre des Finances que j'etais peuvent se resumer
:"bmme suit: donner des ordres au Gouv.emeur de la Banque Nationaleafin
d'organiser et de securiser tous les fonds de la Banque NationaIe et des banques
privees.restes aKigali.
I1 reste entendu que cette tache fut tres difficile amener en raison du fait que Ie
personneletait en fuite et que I'acces de Kigali pour evacuer les fends, etait de plus,
en plus perilleux, Nous avons neammoins pu localisercertains des agents qui se sont,
alors rendus a. Kigali sous la supervision du Gouverneur de la Banque Nationale, pour
I'evacuation des fonds entre poses a la BanqueNationale, en direction de Gitarama.
L'equipe a rencontre d'enormes difficultes pour pOufOir deplacer les fonds,
notamment les pieces de monnaie et les billets de banque approximative de 11 milliards)qui furent d'ailleurs abendonnes sur place, faute de
pouvoir les transporter.
"
.
.
Ce sont done Ies billets de 1000 et de'SOOO Frs qui ont 6te effeetivement tt~portes et
loges aGltarama, Le montant total se chiffiait a.~J?v~OIr:~~ ~~ds composes
uniquemtnk de &il.Hcs rwandais l'~xb1usion de toate.d~Vj~~ etrangere.
a
9~~
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _---_K_O_1_S_4
__
--tes-traVatlX'"de-transfert-des-fE>nds-se-S()nt-deroules-sous-la..supeMSion.du.GQu~emell
@.
_T
_
__
Mr Ntirugirumbabazi Denis, et du Caissier General de l'Etat Mr Baganizi Wellars. A
r issue de 1'o~ration its n' ont pas eti5h Cle rapp01CeCfit:mai~le-m~-suuvtens-qutrle-e - - - - - - - - - --GouvemeW:-a..fait.un.[apport..~exbal·
...
A leur arrivee a. Gitarama les fonds~·~o:a::t--:;e=te~l;:o:ge;:'s~da;::n:-s~2-:s~uc~c=urs=at:le:-:-s:~d:;:e~);-:-a-;B::-:an--:-qu-e---------CommerclaIe:ercte-fa-B"anque-de-:FCfgali:-Ensuite-nous-avons-recupere-les·fonds-de-----_
_ _.-'-Bu~qyi fureat eu.x, verses a fa Comptabilite de I!, Prefecture de Gitarama pour un
montant de 35 millions.
--Apres-certe-seeurisation-ma-pfemU~re-a£tivite.a,.con~.iste.au.paiemant,..s
_
salairesdes agents sur la base de listes, d' autre part des credits de fonctionnement des
---Mlnisteres. k\ cet effet1e Gouverneur a faIt une"iVanceparcelIue"le-compte- de- eEtarl- - - - - . - - _ _etait.debiteur... ~ensemble...des..situatiQns_co.mp.taQ.le~~t~e!11g~~t~I1u~~.Q.a!le C~issi~r
General Mr Wellars mais iI dit avoir laisse tous ces documents a Goma,
------A:pres Gitarama res-f6tiC!s-b-nrete-deplwc~n'meme-temps-que-le Gouvernernenta•.- - - - - - -_
____ Gisen)!Lc..MQ.(am.b~).I2!1jsit Goma (Zaire) ~u ils fureat deposes dans les chambres
fortes de 2 Banques locales. Depuis lorsje ne me souviens que d~Uiisew7etrairde---'-'--80o-millions-se-repartissant-eE>mme-suit~-SOo.miUioDS-poUL.le. paiement.des.salaires
.
_
1- j.~' au mois de juilllet , des civils et des militaires; et 300 millions remis awe FAR.
Deduction faite de ce montaJiije pense qu r ifa evait-iestet-·en-depOr 17·milliards-qui-- - ·- - ····- -- - - ·
---pat=-la-suite-ont.ete..saisis. panle.Gouvemement zair.9.is.:_::&,ld ~ (,.~ ~--\=l.A f2Jft ~ e ~ c:; f{{
Peu de temps apres.je suis patti du Gouvemement Ie lerNovembre 199410rsque Ie
-----rerNffiiiStfe Kamban~ro-cette-aUTemaniementde-l"equipegouvemementale-et--_ _ qu.1La.pr.et:e.r.~_cdIlflerIe portefeuille a un de ses proches,
Pendant que j' assumais les charges du Ministere des·~.~F~in-an:.::-::c:::--es~·,"':"je--n...a-l-pas-c-o-ns-~tate,.'-par......-.·---- -----mor-meme-m-entendu-diIe- qlle-des-malversations-financieres.aientete.;commises.par__.
- .-.._-_
des membresdu Gouvemement ou toute autre personne. A plus forte raison je n'ai
.
----·-auc~e souvenance depersonnesetant parties-eriErirop.. _..__.
. seul a. avoir la signature sur tous les comptes aI' exterieur, mais ama connaissance il
....0. a Jamals commisde-detournemenrdtrgenre.
-.-.----- _._--. . .-----.
__. Je.rec.Qnnais_aussC.qt:(iL~x.i$lt des c0l!!.E.tes geres ~ les Ministres, et qui
echeppaient au controle du Ministre des Finances.;; ---- .---_.._-- -.--.------.---C
c- - - - - - -
1
--_ ... _---
_---_._- _.. _ _------------.--- ........ -.-._---_._----_...
.......
_
,
II
I.
'"
I
K0217398
... Today, 30 November 1996, from 4.20 to 7.19 p.m., I interviewed MR. Emmanuel
NDINDABAHIZI, former Minister of Finance in the interim government of Rwanda,
. who replied to my questions as follows:
"First of all, I would like to insist on the problem of security the intending returnees are
faced with. Personally, I have been living here in exile for rnore than a year, and in an
irregular situation, because the validity of my passport has expired, though my visa does
not expire until May 1997. This is to tell you how much, like many of my countrymen.,
wish to return to my home country, if I were assured of finding the minimum security. I
know that there is a big difference between what the current leaders are saying and what
they actually are doing. Sometimes even this difference no longer exists, like the example
of yesterday's Cabinet meeting which directed the seizure and sale without any other
formalities of the fixed assets of all those who are suspected to have been involved in the
genocide.
.
With particular regard to my career, I would like to inform you that before the war, I
lived in Kigali without interruption right from 1976, when I obtained my university
degree. I later held the following posts:
1977-1981 :
Director of Finance in the TRAFIPRO Co-operative Society;
1981-1985:
Chief of Administration and Finance, EECTROGAZ Company;
1985-1991:
Chief of Internal Finance Department, Ministry of Planning;
1991 - July 1992: Auditor in a private audit firm;
1992 - April 1994: Directeur de Cabinet, Ministry of Finance.
It should be noted that my appointment to the last post above resulted from the fact that I
was a member of the PSD party. As a matter of fact, at the launching of political parties
in 1991, five major parties were formed and shared ministerial portfolios in proportion to
the number accorded to each political party. The PSD wasthus allocated three portfolios,
including the Finance Ministry, which was assigned to Mr. Marc RUGENERA [who still
holds the post until now]. Following the example of the other ministers, Mr.
RUGENERA formed his ministerial team, by basically bringing in his party supporters.
And it was just natural that his choice for someone to lead his team fell on me. I carried
out those duties until the events of 1994.
At the outbreak of those events, I first hid in the home of a neighbour in our locality and
then, for security reasons, I hid in the home of Mr. Yacinthe RAFIKI, who was then
Directeur de Cabinet for the Minister of Public Works and whose residence was guarded
by gendarmes. That is where I spent the night of 7th to 8th April 1994.
It is true that on my way to Mr. RAFIKl's residence I came across only one roadblock.
After checking my identity card, the people manning the roadblock. kept me for some
time because they did not understand why cadres like me were in hiding and leaving
them to do the job by themselves. I was so scared then that I did not want to stare those
K018-493S - K018·4938
Translated from the French
people in the face. Also, for the time I was at the .roadblock, I did not witness anybody,
whether Tutsis or not, being harassed.
On 8th April, Colonel BAGOSORA came to RAFIKI's residence. He wanted him to go
and attend a meeting of political parties, which ended up in the formation of a new
government. RAFIKI told him of my presence and insisted that I attend the meeting in
my capacity as member of the PSD. BAGOSORA accepted that I join them. On our way,
we picked another member of my party, someone called Francois NDUNGUTSE. By the
time we arrived at the venue, the Ministry of Defence, we noticed that the meeting had
already ended and that it was only our party, the PSD, thathad not been represented. But
Mr. MUGENZI immediately briefed us on what had been discussed and asked us to
designate, there and then, the candidates for the posts in the new government that had
been allocated to our party. We were embarrassed, because such direct appointments
were contrary to the principles of our party for they had to be sanctioned by a meeting of
the political bureau. But Mr. MUGENZI insisted that such an arrangement would not be
possible, given the troubles in the country and the fact that a.ll the other members of the
bureau were either dead or impossible to find.
that emergency situation, the two-man
bureau composed of RAFIKI and NDUNGUTSE which ruled RAFIKI becomes Minister
of Public Works, I become Minister of Finance, and Straton NSABUMUKUNZI
becomes Minister of Agriculture.
In
The following people attended the meeting of 8 April 1994:
- Edouard KAREMERA:
MRND
- Mathieu NGIRUMPATSE MRND
- Joseph NZIRORERA
MRND
- Justin MUGENZI
PL
- Agnes NTAMABYARIRO PL -These two from the PL were already members of the
previous government
- Gaspard RUHUMULIZA PDC
- Donat MUREGO
MDR
- Froduard KARAMIRA
MDR
That day, I did not notice the presence of either KAMBANDA who, apparently, was
hiding at the Gendarmerie, or President SINDIKUBWABO, who was being looked for.
In my opinion, their appointment can be explained as follows:
the MDR had already tipped KAMBANDA for the post, in application of the Arusha
Accords;
SINDIKUBWABO was not only the MRND's choice, but also the choice under the
Constitution.
The new government was set up on 8th April and a swearing-in ceremony was organised
the next day. It was on that occasion that I met KAMBAND.A for the first time. Both him
K018·493S - K018·4938
Translated from the French
2
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.<:,,~, •• _., .••e:.
'. _
... ,
: '.
.',.......................•...
I";'{
"
"1
I
j
K04"17400
:!"
~
.~
and SINDIKUBWABO attended the ceremony,. which took place at the Hotel des
Diplomates.
A Cabinet meeting was held immediately thereafter. I do not recall the exact decisions
taken but they basically related to the restoration of peace and stability in the country.
The new government stayed in Kigali until iz" April. Its main preoccupation was to find
a way of establishing a dialogue with the RPF, with a view to stopping the war and the
massacres. The RPF, however, refused to negotiate with us, calling our govermnent a
bunch of criminals.
The talks were initiated by Prime Minister KAMBANDA, who was later replaced by
GATSINZI, upon the request of the RPF, who insisted they 'wanted to talk to a military
representative.
Contact with the RAF [Rwandan Armed Forces) was automatically through the Ministry
of Defence, but the RPF insisted that the ~F should not be mandated by the
government. The RAF did not accept.
I do not know whether military issues were raised at cabinet meetings, but I remember
that at one moment, the Minister of Defence said that the army was short of ammunition,
because some suppliers from South Africa were refusing to rnake deliveries. It was then
decided that the Chief of Supplies be sent on mission. That person never came back. I
think his only destination was Egypt.
I do not think the Cabinet ever discussed the issue of the Presidential Guard [the OP],
because that was a special force, which, in my opinion, was answerable only to the
President of the Republic. After the death of its initiator, I doubt whether the OP
continued to operate under SINDIKUBWABO, the new President. But, upon the request
of the RPF, there was debate on the creation of a 1000-man force composed of the RPF,
the RAF and the UNAMIR to fight the OP. I think the UNAMIR was opposed to the
proposal, because their mandate would not allow them to do so. Moreover, from 9th to
12tfi April, I never saw any OP commanders, nor did I see soldiers attending Cabinet
meetings.
The massacres took place because of the attacks by the RPF and their refusal to negotiate
with the new government with a view to stopping the war. I believe that if there had been
dialogue, the government would have mobilised sufficient security personnel to
effectively stop the massacres.
I recall a meeting of the government with all the prefets that took place between 10th and
11 th April. All the prefets were present, with the exception of the one from Butare,
probably because he was a Tutsi. The matters for discussion were the exchange of
information and the measures to be put in place. That is all I can tell you.
K018-493S - K018-4938 Translated from the French
3
Indeed, the goveniment issued some directives in. order to stop the massacres, .but I am
not able to enumerate them. I only remember that some written messages were drafted
but, unfortunately, I do not have any copy or text thereof. The government also embarked
on public awareness campaigns in the areas that were not occupied by the RPF. In that
line, I led the first delegation to Gikongoro and was part of another one that went to
Kibuye, led by President SINDIKUBWABO. That was between April and June. I also
know that the President went 0 Butare. I have forgotten what was said in the two places
[Kibuye and Butare], but I know that the massacres there had already started.
From 12th April to 2 nd June, the government moved to Gitarama. During that period, in
the first fortnight of May, I went on an ADB mission to Nairobi.
My duties as Minister ofFinance can be summarised as follows: to instruct the Governor
of the National Bank to ensure the safety of all the funds kept in the National Bank and
the commercial banks in Kigali. Obviously, this was a difficult task because of the fact
that the staff had fled and the access to Kigali to evacuate the funds had become more
and more dangerous. However, we managed to trace some employees who went to Kigali
and with the supervision of the Governor of the National Bank, we transferred the funds
deposited in the. National Bank to Gitarama. The team, however, met with enormous
difficulties in transferring the funds, particularly with regard to coins and the 100 franc
notes [totalling 11 billion francs], which were, as a matter of fact, abandoned there
because it was impossible to take them. It was only the 1,000 and 5,000 franc notes that
were transported and kept in Gitarama, for a total amount of 22 billion, only in Rwandan
francs, excluding any foreign currency.
The transfer of funds was carried out under the supervision of the Governor of the Bank,
Mr. Denis NTIRUGIRIMBABAZI and the Chief Goverrunent Cashier, Mr. Wellars
BAGANIZI. They did not produce a written report at the end of the operation, but I
remember that the Governor made a verbal report.
In Gitarama, the funds were deposited into two banks: the Banque Commerciale and the
Banque de Kigali. We then transferred the money that was in Butare, totalling 35 million
francs, and we deposited it in the Gitarama prefecture accounts office.
After ensuring the safety of the funds, my first duty was to payout staff salaries basing
on lists, and then to release operational funds for the ministries. To this effect, the
Governor advanced money to the government because its account was in red. All the
bank statements were kept by the Chief Cashier, Mr. Wellars, but he claims he left all the
documents in Goma.
When the government moved to Gisenyi (Muramba), the funds were transferred there,
and later to Goma (Zaire), where they were deposited in the strong rooms of two local
banks. From then on, I only recall one withdrawal of 800 million which was apportioned
as follows: 500 million for paying salaries of civilians and soldiers up to July; and 300
million remitted to the RAF. After deducting this amount, I think the balance in the banks
was 17 billion francs. It was later seized by the Zairean government.
KO 18·4935 - KO 18-4938
Translated from the French
4
K0217402
Shortly after, I left the government on 15t November 1994 when Prime Minister
KAMBANDA carried out a Cabinet reshuffle, preferring to give the portfolio to one of
his close associates, Innocent HABAMENSHI.
While I was Minister of Finance, I did not personally see or hear anybody say that there
was financial mismanagement by the members of the government or anybody else. In
particular, I do not remember any people who went to Europe or elsewhere to withdraw
money from special accounts. It is true that the Governor was the only signatory to all
external accounts, but to the best of my knowledge, he was never involved in such
embezzlement.
I also admit that there were accounts held by Ministers, which could not be controlled by
the Ministry of Finance.
K0184935 - K018-4938 Translated from the French
5
